I now believe that it is fairly well-established that Republicans generally are more patriotic than Democrats. Why is that so?
The motivation for this thread came out of this post in this thread and the ensuing discussion. I was asked to “take your hijack somewhere else” and now this is that somewhere else. You are welcome to read the context and arguments thus far over there, but I will try to briefly summarize the factual basis for my premise here regardless, as I suspect that that will become the main topic of discussion and not so much the why, although I would welcome any insights you have to offer on that front as well.
They helpfully provided a breakdown of the results by various groups, and here are those results for the two that matter for purposes of this OP:
Republicans:
52% extremely patriotic
39% very patriotic
9% somewhat patriotic
less than 0.5% not especially patriotic
Democrats:
20% extremely patriotic
42% very patriotic
26% somewhat patriotic
11% not especially patriotic
Personally I don’t see any reasonable way to parse those results that doesn’t show Democrats as generally less patriotic than Republicans, but I’d be delighted to hear your theories and arguments as to why this is not so, if that’s the claim you wish to advance.
Pretty clearly for self-definition of patriotism, Democrats are less patriotic. That’s not surprising. Patriotism, in some circles on the left, is a vaguely (and for some, quite definitely) a dirty word. Obviously, as we see from the poll, those circles are a minority. But a significant one.
If I ask anti-vaxxers how informed they are on vaccinations they will probably respond that they have greater expertise than so-called doctors (I’m exaggerating of course). If you ask most people how well they drive, more than 50% will say above average. Similarly, most people believe that are above average intelligence. And so on. Self-identification does not necessarily relate to actual characteristics. I don’t think you can conclude much except that Republicans self-identify as being more patriotic than Democrats, not that they actually are.
Excellent, our first counter-point. Do you have a better way to measure patriotism than what Gallup used? Or do you consider this an unknowable? We are, after all, asking people about their feelings on a subject. In your post, you called it an “actual characteristic”. How would this “actual characteristic” manifest itself in your opinion? Perhaps we could measure that manifestation?
The question asked is akin to looking at a poll of what men and women think about their weight, seeing that more women than men consider themselves overweight, and then asking “Why are women generally fatter than men?” :rolleyes:
If anything, it’s because the term “patriot” has been co-opted by the hard right anti-federal government militia sovereign citizen survivilist movements and most Democrats want to distance themselves from that nonsense. I still remember hearing Sean Hannity babbling on and on about how Cliven Bundy was “a true patriot”.
I never really understood the anti-government = patriot thing, but I imagine it had something to do with the Democrats being in power. Patriots have only been in favor of the government since late January. So once you start towards defining “patriot” in a way that correlates with right-leaning or Republican --yeah, then Republicans are, by definition,more patriotic.
But I think it’s just terminology, I don’t think Democrats in general love their country any less than Republicans do. We just express it differently.
My guess: The right has been more successful at defining their views as patriotic. When patriotism comes up in American politics, it’s more often identified with right-wing policies, so a lot of Democrats and Republicans hear it as a them-word or an us-word.
I bet you could find a similar divide on a word like “family.” That doesn’t mean Democrats actually like families less.
And with weight, we’ve got objective measurements to refute those opinions. Do you have any objective measurements for patriotism you’d like to propose?
Given that only 1% were not willing / able to form an opinion in response to the question, I’d say that Americans generally seem to have a pretty good understanding of how to quantify their patriotism. Your proposed research study appears to be unnecessary.
Are you saying that you think “patriotism” is a “nebulous and illogical concept”?
Honestly, I wasn’t intending to belittle Democrats. I thought I made a perfectly reasonable post in the other thread. ElvisL1ves got the ball rolling on this discussion with his posts #157, #172, and #185. This thread was probably fueled largely by annoyance over his nitpick of the word “yet” and continued insistence making an issue of it.
You have a chance to make your argument in whatever form you like right here.
I think that self-identified patriotism is a fine measurement, but since some have taken issue with it, I wonder if they have a better measurement. Or perhaps they consider it just a mystery of the universe that we’ll never know the answer to. Your research grant joke was a bit funny, but should my takeaway from that be that you don’t know of any better measurement of the respective parties’ patriotism than the Gallup poll either (since you’re suggesting we need to create our own)?
You know What? I’m at a bar drinking beer. I am self reporting that I am ok to drive home, so therefore I must be. I’ll go back and reread your argument when I get home. I can’t think of a way science might prove I’m unable to do so. Any research in that area would be unnecessary.
Republicans tend to self-identify as traditionalists or conservatives, however loosely defined. Traditionalists and/or conservatives in a modern context have a greater tendency towards ardent nationalism( my humble opinion ). Ardent nationalists will naturally tend towards self-identifying as patriots.
While a great many( a large majority, probably )of Democrats are also ardent nationalists, a minority are not. Either they have a philosophical distaste for nationalism and are soft internationalists( hardcore internationalists mostly don’t self-identify as Democrats ) or as mentioned in that other thread they just regard the term as the equivalent to jingoist and don’t care to be lumped in with the more monomaniacal flag-wavers.
I made two points in response to your argument and you didn’t respond to either one (at least, that I saw). I’ll repeat them here so that maybe you can answer them this time:
Presidential job approval polls are measuring “an unquantifiable value judgement as well (unless you want to tell me how many milliliters there are in “good job, Mr. President”). Do you dismiss those as meaningless?”
You said the Gallup question was “just about the vaguest and least descriptive question possible”. Can you provide an example of a polling question about patriotism that you think is more descriptive and less vague than “How patriotic are you?” If it truly is “just about the the vaguest and least descriptive question possible”, I imagine this will be an easy exercise for you.
P.S. I’m a conservative. We don’t believe in nationalizing things.
