Why are Republicans generally more patriotic than Democrats?

[epolo]

@msmith537

It’s not a terrible metric if you just want to subjectively measure Americ[COLOR=“Silver”]a[/COLOR][sup]TM[/sup] brand loyalty. But really it’s about as useful as using “Have you seen Hamilton” as a measure of patriotism.

I think analogizing patriotism to brand loyalty makes sense. Perhaps we should ask some standard brand loyalty questions:

• How satisfied are you with the services you receive for being an American?
• Would you be willing to pay more than you do at present to be American?
• Would you recommend becoming American to non-Americans?

How do you thing Dems/Reps would answer those?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[elucidator]

I’m thinking about typical reactions to the question itself. Like, taking one of the “extreme” Republicans, he’s likely to be pleased. Most people are pleased to have their opinions respectfully asked, of course. But then there’s the extra added juice like “At last, the fake news media is asking a question about something that really matters! Hell, yes! I’m extremely patriotic, and brave enough to say so! So, go tell that to your liberal weenie boss!”

Other guy, even if briefly pleased by the solicitation, might bristle. Lot of us have put up with that crap for years and years, like there’s something wrong with opposing injustice or needless and brutal wars. From the git-go, the reaction to the question is likely colored by experience “WTF do you mean am I patriotic?!”

For myself, fuckng love this country! Gonna love it even more when we fix it! Hot damn!

@HurricaneDitka

So do we at least agree that the Gallup question wasn’t “loaded” then?

There’s a guy here does that way better than you do. Out of deference for his blushing modesty, no names. But you could take lessons.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Ann_Hedonia

But I’m done with reasoned responses to Ditka, this is just another trolling thread like the 4th of July one. I remember a lot of Dems gave very well thought out responses about what their country meant for them and the response was just sort of, “Oh, you are all a bunch of overthinking navel gazers but you still hate America.”

Can you point me to the post(s) where he said that? I’m not disputing that it was said; I’m genuinely curious. HD has started a number of potentially argumentative threads lately where he seemed (at least to me) to be trying to avoid poisoning the well.

[tomndebb]

@HurricaneDitka

Personally I don’t see any reasonable way to parse those results that doesn’t show Democrats as generally less patriotic than Republicans, but I’d be delighted to hear your theories and arguments as to why this is not so, if that’s the claim you wish to advance.

Personally, I do not think that you have previously demonstrated the ignorance that this statement displays.

The word patriotic means different things to different people.
The word patriotic has been politicized, (at least since the 1950s, perhaps sooner), to indicate right-leaning political associations rather than a love of country.
What is your definition of patriotic and what evidence can you provide that every person polled shared your definition and not some other meaning?

What in the world is reasonable about an assumption that the personal feelings of people polled using a word with no set definition but multiple connotations indicates that all the people in the poll are responding to your idiolectual definition?

[BeepKillBeep]

@HurricaneDitka

I haven’t claimed it “forecasts” anything at all. I was trying to dispense with the objection that the poll wasn’t useful because of its subjective, as opposed to objective, nature. We collectively find value in lots of subjective evaluations. Everything from the presidential job approval to ‘happiness’.

It isn’t so much that it is subjective, although that is part of it, it is that you have to be careful when trying to draw a conclusion from a survey and especially a single survey question. There’s only one question that this survey question answers, how to Republicans and Democrats self-identify with respect to patriotism. There’s no other reasonable conclusion that this one question can allow you to reach, although there are many unreasonable conclusions. That’s why surveys typically ask a multitude of questions and sometimes even the same question in a different form. This helps to show the nuance of the responses.

Consider the following example:

How much do you approve of Donald Trump?
How much do you approve of how Donald Trump is running the country?

How much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the economy?
How much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the foreign affairs?
How much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the immigration?

If you disapprove of Donald Trump, how much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the economy?
If you disapprove of Donald Trump, how much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the foreign affairs?
If you disapprove of Donald Trump, how much do you approve of how Donald Trump is handling the immigration?

Some might answer extremely disapprove to the first question, but approve to the second. Why? Because maybe the disapprove of Trump as a person, but approve of what’s he doing for the country. Or the inverse. Or disapprove on both. The next three questions can help to identify in what areas a person might approve or disapprove of specific policies. And the final three can identify what it is that a person who disapproves of Trump might approve or disapprove. For example, somebody might approve of how he’s handling immigration even though overall they disapprove of Trump and his other policies.

Trying to draw a conclusion beyond how do Republicans and Democrats self-identify with respect to patriotism just doesn’t work from that single question.

[DrFidelius]

My country, right her wrongs!

Patriotic as fuck.

[ElvisL1ves]

The Carl Schurz version of Decatur’s toast includes “When wrong to be put right”. Too many of us don’t recognize even the possibility, though. The ones actively fighting the many efforts to make the country a better place - for no defensible reason, just opposition to people they’ve been taught to despise - are actually the opposite of patriotic no matter how strongly they claim it.

[Bone]

@Ann_Hedonia

But I’m done with reasoned responses to Ditka, this is just another trolling thread like the 4th of July one. I remember a lot of Dems gave very well thought out responses about what their country meant for them and the response was just sort of, “Oh, you are all a bunch of overthinking navel gazers but you still hate America.”

This is a warning for accusing another poster of trolling which is not permitted in this forum.

[/moderating]

[septimus]

I just posted in another thread with an observation that answers this question as well.

@septimus

Because of high mobility and the self-selected nature of today’s media, we have a new model for party division: These days, people pick a party based on their cognition modality. People who think with their temporal cerebral lobe gravitate to the Democratic Party. People whose cognition is dominated by an active amygdala (the brain center for the emotions of fear and disgust) gravitate to the Republican Party.

This sad conclusion has been confirmed by a variety of scientific studies, and explains today’s partisan gulf.

Those who rely on cerebral cognition are happy to understand the strengths and weakness of other cultures. They want to learn what good ideas other countries can teach, and so on. Liberals are happy to embrace what’s good about their country, but willing to question, and willing to change what isn’t good.

The more vulgar aspects of patriotism often involve fear and disgust of “The Other.” Thus it is normal to expect exaggerated patriotism to correlate with amygdalar cognition.

Amygdalar cognition certainly does have its own very important roles to play. When the enemy is charging I may prefer that my foxhole buddy is an amygdalar type, rather than an erudite over-thinker! When we had “big tent” political parties, we could learn from people with alternative modes of cognition. Those days are gone, and now all we can do is point fingers at each other: “You want to kill babies!” … “I’m more patriotic than you!” … Very sad.

[elucidator]

Cognitive dissonance is the number one threat to the Republic! Amygdalar cognition is a distant second! Splitter!

[Bill_Door]

@Little_Nemo

(snip)And my response if your premise is flawed. The poll didn’t establish that Republicans are more patriotic than Democrats. It established that Republicans call themselves more patriotic than Democrats do. This may reflect that Democrats have a higher standard for patriotism than Republicans have.

Or a greater affinity for the truth.

[Una_Persson]

@HMS_Irruncible

What’s it a fine measurement of? All it measures is whether someone describes themselves as patriotic. Of course, some people truly do believe that signaling patriotism is equal to being patriotic, but are you content to let that be your whole definition?

You could try to quantify it with a few points, but some of them fall apart when you start looking at them. A few examples:
[ul]
[li]Did you serve in the millitary?[/li]…(snipped)…
[/ul]
Some of these seem like no brainers, but are more contentious when you pick them apart… i.e. military service is a pretty undeniable commitment, so why did so many arch-conservatives dodge Vietnam, and don’t even want to serve their country by paying taxes?

Let’s never forget the fact that it has been Republicans who fought and led the fight for decades to not only prevent LGBT persons from serving in the military, but also gladly supported taking our fighting men and women who were LGBT and kicking them out with a giant “fuck you!” And it’s Republicans who are right now trying to undo the Obama Administration directives allowing transgender military service, with some even trying to get LBG persons thrown out.

Because, um, America, I guess?

[septimus]

@Una_Persson

Let’s never forget the fact that it has been Republicans who fought and led the fight for decades to not only prevent LGBT persons from serving in the military, but also gladly supported taking our fighting men and women who were LGBT and kicking them out with a giant “fuck you!” And it’s Republicans who are right now trying to undo the Obama Administration directives allowing transgender military service, with some even trying to get LBG persons thrown out.

Because, um, America, I guess?

It’s the amygdala, I tell you. In olden times, the amygdalar types were split between both sides of the aisle and could be outnumbered and talked down from their worst excesses.

With the Cerebrum-Amygdala dichotomy now dominating American political alignment and kleptocrats exploiting the dissonance, we can expect increasing efforts to focus right-wing rage against any “other” … other than those deserving of the rage, the kleptocrats themselves.

[Lightnin]

Given the recent sudden embracing of Russia by Republicans, it seems to me the question really should be:

“Why do Republicans claim to be more patriotic than Democrats?”

[Johnny_Ace]

@Ravenman

Second, there’s an implication – which honestly I don’t believe the OP is arguing in this thread, but I have suspicions that he does indeed harbor – that there is something wrong with people who do not share one’s own opinion of patriotism. An in fact, many of my friends from my side of the aisle are doing the exact same thing: looking down on Republicans as being worse people because they self-identify as being more patriotic.

I couldn’t care less how they identify themselves, other than in this way: I look down on Republicans who wrap themselves in the flag while simultaneously trampling on the very values they claim to revere. I feel the same way about Democrats who act that way, but the malady seems to be much more of a Republican ‘thing.’

Equality is a biggie. Liberty for all, too (which sort of bleeds over into the former), not just for the privileged.

Extreme patriotism my ass. Betcha just about every Klan member identifies as ‘extremely patriotic.’

[DSeid]

I think large numbers of each side interpret “patriotic” and especially “extremely patriotic” as “my country right or wrong.” A statement of faith, a creed. Intellectually I do not agree with that definition but I cannot help the fact that I still feel that connotation myself.

IMHO quite a few Republicans with that understanding of the meaning endorse the thought and quite a few Democrats believe it their duty as Americans to be critical of our government’s actions when appropriate and skeptical of stated goals, so that connotation discomforts.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Airbeck

So what are you actually taking away from it then? What value are you ascribing to it exactly? Are you literally taking it to mean that Republicans are better Americans than Democrats or something along those lines? Or are you simply taking from it that Republicans on average rate themselves as more patriotic? If the latter, then so what? What does that actually say about either party? If the former, then I think that’s a ridiculous conclusion from the available data. If something else, then what?

For me personally, it’s definitely something more along the lines of the latter. I don’t believe that I’ve used the word “better” to try to rate Republicans as somehow overall superior to Democrats in this thread or the previous one. If I were to advance such a claim, it certainly wouldn’t be due to their respective levels of patriotism.

@Airbeck

I guess what I’m asking here is what, exactly, are you trying to get us to admit or agree to? What’s the aim of the thread, really?

I’m not trying to get you to admit or agree to anything. I wanted to hear some Dopers thoughts on why this poll came out the way it did. And it’s been interesting so far. We’ve gotten responses all the way from “The liberal response is- fuck that shit. If that is the definition of patriotism, then call be proud not to be patriotic.” to “It’s Democrats who more embody the actual love of country, and the people in it, that the word patriotism properly signifies.” and all sorts of perspectives in between. It’s surprised me how many people argued that patriotism isn’t / can’t be defined, and I honestly expected more replies along the lines of Ravenman’s and less quibbling.

[Wolf333]

Republicans measure patriotism by flag pins and what mustard you put on your burger. It’s not a very high wall to climb.

[The_Tooth]

For a bunch who claim to love their country so much, Republicans don’t seem to give a wet slap about the people in it.

[Wolf333]

@HurricaneDitka

I think that self-identified patriotism is a fine measurement, but since some have taken issue with it, I wonder if they have a better measurement. Or perhaps they consider it just a mystery of the universe that we’ll never know the answer to. Your research grant joke was a bit funny, but should my takeaway from that be that you don’t know of any better measurement of the respective parties’ patriotism than the Gallup poll either (since you’re suggesting we need to create our own)?

Bolding mine…
In that case, I am more patriotic than all republicans combined.