Republicans have given capital “P” patriotism a bad name. Kind of like Obamacare, where the components are more popular when asked about individually. Democrats love their country but remember the biblical line about love not being boastful or arrogant.
The next time someone tells you they are extremely patriotic, ask them to sing the Star Spangled Banner. The fourth verse, if you please.
Everyone has people they care and don’t care about.
I’d suggest starting over with a thread “Why do Republicans self-identify as more patriotic than Democrats?” This one is far too poisoned by the deeply flawed OP.
I was thinking of the sorts who think millions of gay people should be treated as second-class citizens because the thought of two guys getting married make them feel icky, or those who eschew effective health insurance systems because some dead guys in wigs failed to mention it 200 years ago, or those who think their belief in ghosts justifies forcing women to bear children against their will.
It’s not that far-fetched. One characteristic of self-awareness is the knowledge that laudable qualities are not announced by those who bear them; they are displayed.
This is the thing for me. What is generally espoused as “patriotism” here in the US really does teeter on the edge of blind “my country right or wrong” jingoistic nationalism. And nationalism scares the crap out of me. So, yes, I’m mostly a lefty, and for the purposes of the poll, I probably would not consider myself patriotic in the American sense. I don’t fly flags or wear my Americanism on my sleeve, but I do want the best for my country and do have a sincere love for it.
There has been a pretty consistent argument in this thread that (I’m going to generalize / summarize here) lots of Republicans’ / Americans’ view of patriotism means not ever criticizing our country. I certainly haven’t seen that manifest itself in my personal life, and no one has yet supplied any data to support the claims made. Do any of you have data / evidence, or is this all based on your personal anecdotes?
tomndebb you said “the Right Wing has hijacked the word “patriot” in the minds of many people to indicate an unquestioning support for the actions of my country regardless of whether those actions are right of wrong”. How did you reach that conclusion about the minds of “many” people? Did you conduct a scientific poll? Read a scientific poll? Read the results of an online poll? In short, why the claim about “many”? Or should this just be dismissed as a personal anecdote that doesn’t really apply to “many people”?
Wolfpup and Anny Middon didn’t quantify your statements, but you did say “the Republican style of patriotism” and “conservatives” without a qualifier. The sense I get from reading your posts is that you believe that this view of patriotism (“unconditional” / ‘shouldn’t dare to think there’s something wrong with the country’) is widespread among people on the other side of the aisle from you. Is that your view? If so, how did you come to that conclusion? Or should I take this as just more personal anecdotes about the minuscule fraction of Republicans and conservatives that you’ve interacted with directly?
BobLibDem, you said that “To Republicans” “patriotism means” “thinking that the US can do no wrong and that we must support the president, so long as it’s a white male.” If you think back to the Clinton administration, I think you’ll realize how erroneous the latter part of your statement is, but what about the first part? How did you conclude that patriotism means to Republicans “the US can do no wrong”? As someone who’s listened to a fair bit of talk radio and watched Fox News a bit, I think you’re completely wrong here. There are shitloads of things that Republicans think the US is doing or has done wrong. How did you reach the conclusion you did, which - to me - is self-evidently wrong? The Gallup poll from the OP said that only 7% of Republicans “are satisfied with the way things are going in the country”. Did you read some other poll or conduct a bunch of focus groups where Republicans told you “the country can do no wrong”? Some personal anecdotes again? Or did it just sound good when you typed it, so you went with it without really thinking it through (sort of like the white male president thing)?
ElvisL1ves, “Too many of us don’t recognize even the possibility” [of our country being wrong]. How did you determine it was too many? How did you determine it was any more than the tiny handful of personal anecdotes that I imagine was the genesis for this statement?
DSeid You said “large numbers of each side” and “quite a few Republicans”. Any factual basis for that opinion, or is it just a personal hunch? I want to give you credit for saying “I think” and “IMHO” (and your bipartisanship and inclusiveness), but should any outside observer have any reason for believing your “large numbers” or “quite a few” quantifications?
pulykamel you said it was “generally espoused as patriotism”. What led you to that conclusion? If we want to base our sweeping statements about people on some actual facts, why should anyone take your “generally” with anything but a truckful of salt? Is this just you painting with a broad brush, or is there actually some data out there that shows that “my country right or wrong” is actually the ‘general’ view of patriotism?
Is patriotism even a virtue? What if your vision of what the country should be is stupid?
HurricaneDitka, you seem to be skirting around this issue. Do you actually think that because Republicans are more likely to label themselves “Extremely Patriotic” and Democrats are more likely to label themselves “Very patriotic”, Republicans are overall more patriotic than Democrats?
Every four years, a major component of the Republican definition of “patriotism” certainly seems to be “wearing a flag pin on your lapel”. And woe betide anyone who doesn’t.
I too am baffled by the notion that Republicans don’t criticize America. Have people not seen Fox News Facebook comment sections?
wolfpup was making a similar argument in the post that I snipped from above. I suspect that most Americans think of patriotism as a virtue. Earlier Procrustus said that “… the Right has turned the concept of patriotism into a dirty word …” and my response was that “89% of Democrats told Gallup that supposedly-dirty word described them, in varying degrees.” (and an even higher % of Republicans). If people generally thought that it were a negative, I’d expect to see far fewer people saying they were “extremely” or “very”.
But, I think part of your post was getting at the idea that just because it’s popular doesn’t mean it’s right or good. I agree with that concept in a general sense, but I don’t generally view patriotism as a bad thing. There were similar discussions in my 4th of July thread too.
Why do people chant “USA! USA!” at Trump rallies?
Why do people vote for someone who says our country is a disaster?
Are these the people who consider themselves “extremely” patriotic?
If these people are examples of patriotism, count me out. Perhaps that explains the polling.
Are you extremely patriotic?
I thought I answered this very directly in post #77, but I will attempt to do so here as well. Your post examines the ‘high’ end of the poll (extremely / very). The other half of the poll, the ‘low’ end, shows that 11% of Democrats consider themselves “not especially patriotic” while less than 0.5% of Republicans rate themselves similarly. Given that, yes, I think “Republicans are overall more patriotic than Democrats”, or to put it more precisely and assuage some of the concerns expressed up-thread, Republicans overall label themselves as more patriotic than Democrats do.
Didn’t we just have a thread a bit ago about how it was inappropriate to criticize in any way, shape, or form, the United States of America on the Fourth of July?
Maybe I was wrong, but I felt that it was being inferred that those who would dare to make such observations as to the flaws and challenges to their country would be unpatriotic. I don’t know if that word was actually used, and I don’t feel like going back to find out, but it certainly felt that way to me.
Now, if we were just talking about thinks that were appropriate or prudent, and that you were not talking about patriotism, then I got the wrong impression, but you would have to admit that it would be a reasonable impression to get from the context of the thread.
In any case, have you ever heard the phrase, “America, love it or leave it”? Anyone who uses that phrase or any of its variations is one who does not brook any criticism of their motherland. This is a sentiment more oft expressed on the R side of the aisle.
That doesn’t answer my question. Seriously, if your vision of what the country should be is a stupid one, is it fair to say that your patriotism is not a virtue? Popularity doesn’t really enter into it.
They think that the US can do no wrong internationally, for sure. Every war is justified, torture is justified, etc. Domestically, everything the US does is right, unless it was initiated by a Democratic president. Civil rights- bad. Torture- good. Obamacare- bad. So let me qualify my statement to “The US can do no wrong unless a Democrat was involved.”
My post emphasizes the higher end of the poll because that is where 91% of the Republicans and 62% of the Democrats placed themselves. You seem to want to ignore the majority of those polled to “prove” your point(whatever that is), and you are wrong to do so. Now-would you care to comment on where the vast majority of Republicans and Democrats polled and/or how you would have answered the poll yourself?