It’s not the “fault” of the woman, it’s just that when she knowingly helps him cheat, she, well, knowingly helps him cheat. Help. Cheat. Knowingly. These are the key words. She’s responsible for that–not for his actions, but for her own. Knowingly helping a guy cheat. (And, BTW, if he lies to her and doesn’t tell her he’s married, she isn’t knowingly helping him cheat, now is she? )
You’re kidding, right? Why can’t I judge? Why can’t I form an opinion? We judge each other all the time. You’ve judged my comments on this thread and have responded to them. HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME?!?!?!?
OK then, how about the guy who pulls the trigger but the (would-be) victim gets out of the way in time? The guy that shot and missed isn’t a better person than the guy who shoots and gets his target.
Yes, that’s the whole point. You would dump him just as you would dump the guy who actually did cheat on you.
Please go back and read what I posted: “It hurt, but …”
FFS. I’m not talking about going around deliberately hurting people, but sometimes hurt is an inevitable consequence of your actions. I suppose I could just not ever have a relationship with anybody if I knew there was somebody else interested in them, but that’s not really any way to live your life, is it? :rolleyes: So yeah, in this respect I draw the line at people I know.
I don’t have any ulterior motivations. I’m just explaining why I disagree with you. I know perfectly well it’s not going to change your mind, any more than you’re going to change mine.
When a guy cheats but doesn’t succeed (because the woman he hit on refused to go along) he didn’t succeed. And maybe he’ll think better of it next time. Or at the very least, he won’t risk picking up a disease, or getting this woman he tried to pick up pregnant. So is it better that he succeed, or not succeed? Which is it? Or do you really see no difference between risking disease, pregnancy, or not risking disease or pregnancy?
But you are ignoring an important detail: YOU’D ALSO BE DISEASE-FREE. You’d not have to worry about getting yourself checked out. He didn’t succeed in having sex with someone else. He therefore didn’t risk picking up any bugs. See? Big distinction there. So when he fails to find women to agree to sleep with him, his wife, when she finds out (if she finds out) won’t have to worry about that along with the fact that her husband is a bum.
Wait a minute, wait a minute…
He was gonna do it anyway. The fact that he wanted to do it was the hurtful part, right? The having sex with another woman part was incidental. She really wasn’t part of the equation, right? She’s already “removed” from it, right? So why do you admit that it would hurt more if someone you knew slept with your husband? Because hey–he was going to do it anyway. So why should it matter who the other woman is? Who cares? Why shouldn’t she be able to say, “Well, since he made the decision to sleep around, since he had it in his mind to cheat, I might as well be the one he cheats with.”
I mean, I don’t get what the big deal is. After all, you haven’t really wanted to discuss the “other person” who is helping him cheat–you just want to talk about him, and his motivations. So why should it matter if he sleeps with someone you know?
It’s not inevitable in this case. You don’t have to help someone else cheat.
But we’ve already covered this. If you restrict your dating or sexual interests amongst people who have not already signed a marital contract, then there are a lot less hurt feelings. Just like you might want to stay away from buying cars that already were promised away to someone else. Plenty of other cars in the car lot, and plenty of other guys who are not married.
To be honest, this really isn’t so much about sex or marriage in particular. It’s about helping someone who is too gutless to be honest with someone who they made certain promises to, but that they no longer want to keep.
I don’t admire anyone who helps someone who is too gutless to just say to their wife, “I want to separate.” or “I want to sleep with other women.” To instead play this gutless, dishonest, lying routine where he pretends that he wants to keep his contract with his wife, but all the while he isn’t, and he asks other people to help him keep up the gutless lie, well, that’s the crux of it.
If, for instance, a woman doesn’t believe in marriage and thinks it’s a silly convention, and therefore she doesn’t respect another man’s marriage vows, what she needs to do is tell him to tell his wife that he no longer wishes to be faithful. That he wants out of his “contract.” That way, everyone is up to speed. It’s the pretending to be faithful that is the gutless part. Why someone would be willing to help someone else be so spineless and gutless to a completely innocent third party is beyond me, obviously.
You are right “my friend” we have different opinions and I am certainly not trying to convert the world. I am not now nor have I ever been “proud” of being with a married man. I’m just not ashamed of it either.
I have never tried, nor have I ever have split up a marriage. I have slept with a man knowing he was married but having zero interest in them ending their marriage. I have No interest in “breaking up homes”.To the best of my knowledge his wife never knew he had cheated. But if she did he cheated her. I didn’t. If anyone in a marriage is cheating they either don’t see the harm in sex or the marriage was already broken.
I don’t "care so much’ if you are faithful or virginal. You shouldn’t care so much that I’m not.
I think you went thru the “Who are you to judge?” issue to fast… naturally you have the right to “judge”… but its YOUR opinion/view. When you trot on and tell the SO that their loved one is cheating them… you are not only “judging”… your interfering.
When someone who is sexually liberated and non-guilty about sex like calm kiwi… what is wrong with having “fun” ? When you call someone a “slut” your more than judging… your smearing them. You are accusing them of not keeping to YOUR standards. When I see married men in unhappy marriages I think its ridiculous… but I keep it to myself… afterall they might love their children enough to keep up a bad marriage… or they might in fact still love their wives but feel the need for adventure. I don’t judge them because I don’t know what they are going thru.
If in a few years you get hit by lightining and fall madly in love with a woman who is not your wife ? Will you deny passion and return to your wife ? If later you regret not having slept with the other woman... will this not affect your marriage ? The man calm kiwi slept with maybe was just going thru some marriage crisis... he had the quick fling and that was that. Maybe he went back to his wife or not... maybe his affair just showed him how much he still likes his wife... or not. Calm Kiwi had more compassion on NOT judging him...
Or do you think it would have been better for him to lie to Calm Kiwi ? He was honest enough to not hide his marital status and avoid giving other women any illusions. Either way the man is cheating on his wife or lying to his “lover”. So why judge the women who just gave him comfort for some more comfort herself.
Mind you that I have never cheated my GF... but I think if your not committing a crime and being too outrageous or reckless.... its your choice.
Calm Kiwi… I really liked your posts… and I wish more women thought like you… we would have way less amorous problems in this world. I hate double standards men vs women’s behaviour. Sex is what we make of it… if you throw guilt into it… guilty it will feel.
But the fact that there’s no dead body doesn’t make him less of a pig!
Hey, if I thought there was any hope that my telling a guy “no” would prevent him from ever cheating in the future, sure I’d go along with it. The guy I mentioned in my first post to this thread, who wasn’t already a cheater before we slept together, I would never have accepted his advances if I hadn’t been too drunk to think about what I was doing (terrible excuse, I know, and as I said I do feel bad about it). But in general that hasn’t been the case with them. If I said no, they were definitely not gonna think better of it next time.
I’m not ignoring it, I’m just saying that it’s a separate issue, just as the lack of a dead body is a separate issue.
Because a friend has the same duty as an SO not to betray you. A stranger doesn’t. So you’re being betrayed by two people rather than one. Where’s the confusion here?
I said “the inevitable consequences of your actions”, not “the consequences of your inevitable actions”.
I don’t think the car analogy works because (a) it’s a zero sum game - we can’t both own the car, but we can both sleep with the guy - and (b) a car is property and a person isn’t.
But, I think there’s something interesting here which is that you and I both have a line. I draw it at men whose wives/girlfriends/unrequited admirers are women I know, and you draw it at men who’ve made a commitment … but we both have a line. There are some people who have no line whatsoever, and some whose line excludes a whole lot more people and they would probably be appalled at some of the choices you’ve made too. You shouldn’t expect people to guide themselves by your moral compass all the time.
I don’t admire them either. I just wanted to shag them.
But what would his wife feel about that? She has a right to know that he “just wants a bonk.” He may, after all, bring home a disease to her. He shouldn’t be so gutless as to avoid telling her that the “terms” of their loving marriage have changed. He still loves her, but he wants to “bonk.” So maybe she (the wife) should use more protection from now on.
Or, perhaps she (the wife) doesn’t want to be with a man who says he loves her but wants to “bonk.” Don’t you think she’s entitled to make an informed choice? Why is it better that he keep being gutless and keep lying to her? Are her feelings inconsequential?
Please copy and paste where I ever suggested that.
I suggested that if a man no longer wants to keep his maritial contract, that he owes it to his wife to just tell her. I wouldn’t suggest someone else go behind his back and do it for him (though that has been known to happen–a risk a person takes when they start to cheat on their spouse). I am merely suggesting that if a man no longer wishes to remain faithful, then, unless he is a lying, gutless weasel, he ought to tell the person who he made certain promises to that he no longer wishes to keep those promises. Since when is advocating honesty such a radical thing?
Nothing wrong with having “fun.” Just don’t simultaniously help a gutless weasel lie.
Tell me–would you consider it admirable if it was anything else, other than sex and/or marriage? Would you knowingly help someone lie to someone that they’d made a contract with or made some serious promise to? Would you consider that an acceptable way to behave? Would you have no problem helping someone lie, or at least enabling them to continue to lie? Or would you wish to stay clear of the whole situation?
Golly–I’m such a horrible person. I don’t advocate lying and gutlessness.
The soap opera that is their life is none of my business. But I see no reason to advocate helping them continue their soap opera lie of a life, and I don’t respect anyone who helps them continue the facade either.
Now, all this is different if the wife knows and is OK with it. It’s the sneaking around behind her back, keeping her in the dark–that’s the part that is worthy of no respect.
True, but there is still no dead body. And in the case where someone else needs to help him murder, if that second person refuses to help, then there is no dead body. So while he’s still a pig, there is no dead body. And maybe he’ll have time to rethink the whole murder idea.
But you can’t read their minds. Besides, since when it is OK to enable someone to do something wrong, just because “they’re going to do it anyway”?
And the fact that the “other woman” might be your friend is a separate issue too.
Let’s go back and quote what you said previously about the issue of the “other woman”:
So according to you, the woman, whoever she is, is a “step away” from it. And she didn’t make any marriage vows to the wife.
So you’re saying that it’s OK to betray a stranger? I don’t get this logic.
I also don’t get why the friend can’t screw your husband. If you are a “step away” from the infidelity when you sleep with a married man, isn’t she as well? She didn’t make any marriage vows to you. Only he did. And as you brought up earlier, if he’s determined to cheat anyway, why does it matter who he sleeps with? She is, after all, a “step away.” The “betrayal” happened when he decided not to cheat. The actual sex act is incidental.
Well, you make a point–however, the key point I was making is that when there is a contract or promise made, the car (or husband) are not the same as the cars (or husbands) that don’t have any contract attached to them.
While a person is not “property,” if they contract to someone (their wife) to behave in a certain way (remain faithful) she thinks she’s getting a certain thing (a faithful husband). When the guy wants to break that contract, he owes it to her to let her know. Because she may not want to “have” a guy who wants to change that contract. Or, she may have no problem “sharing” him–either way, it’s a choice I think she’s entitled to make–and if only he weren’t so gutless, he’d just tell her and then she’d be able to make that choice.
Yes, that is an interesting point.
Oh, I don’t expect that people will all share my views, but I don’t feel any qualms about expressing my “no gutless” philosophy either. I certainly don’t think it’s a new idea, or a particularly radical concept.
sigh Did I ever mention how many little irritations it saves to be in an open relationship? I love the boi, the boi loves me, and if he does something fun, I feel happy for him instead of throwing a hissy fit.
I’m a lot better placed to judge the likelihood of them rethinking the idea than you are, though. There’s one that I would say probably wouldn’t have cheated otherwise, and I regret that incident. The others though - no. I can say that with complete confidence. If you knew these guys you’d say so too.
I believe in providing needles to drug addicts and condoms to young teenagers, too. YMMV.
No, I’m saying that you can’t betray a stranger.
Yes, but she’s not a step away from her responsibility to me as a friend.
Not all vows are marriage vows. Not all obligations are vows. I think that friends have an obligation not to sleep with each other’s partners (unless they all agree otherwise). If a friend of mine does, she’s breaking that obligation.
It matters where my feelings about her are concerned.
No, HIS betrayal happened when he made that decision. HER betrayal happened when she accepted. Double betrayal. Get it?
I’d agree with that. Honesty is the best policy. I just don’t think it’s my responsibility to enforce someone else’s honesty.
But you ignore the fact that if he needs someone to help him, and that person refuses, there is still no dead body.
So you’re saying it’s OK to help someone else do something wrong, because they are going to do it anyway.
Do you do this because you are worried that they will get in more trouble (i.e. get pregnant or get an STD) or because you are getting something out of it yourself, and you didn’t care how their actions hurt others?
In the case of the married men, you are getting something out of it–you wanted to shag the guy, you shagged the guy. So what if he was a lying, gutless weasel?
Ah, but you can do wrong to a stranger–you can directly contribute to the pain of a stranger.
So it’s OK to contribute to the deception and potential pain of a stranger. Is that it?
Why? Did she make a vow? Why should she deprive herself of some enjoyment, especially when he was going to do it anyway?
Maybe she doesn’t feel that way. Have you discussed it with her? Maybe she doesn’t feel any responsibility to monitor or enforce someone else’s honesty. Who are you to judge her?
Tell me, how good of a friend does she have to be? A best best friend, or a friendly acquaintance? Or someone you’ve met several times?
Hey–refusing to sleep with a married man isn’t exactly forcing him to be honest. It’s just refusing to enable him in this one instance.
So, how far would you like to take this philosophy of not “enforcing” someone else’s honesty? Would you help enable someone to break a contract in some other area, as long as there was something in it for you? Would you enable someone to continue to lie to someone and continue to keep someone else in the dark about something that was pretty important to them (as long as there was something in it for you)? After all, it’s not your responsibility to enforce someone else’s honesty. So would you help them, and enable them in lying?
Because the dead body or no dead body has nothing to do with the kind of person he is. Can we move on from this particular argument? We’re only finding different ways to keep saying the same things over and over again.
Yes, in some cases it is OK.
Again, this is a point we’ve already gone over. Pain happens.
If she doesn’t feel that way I’m not going to stay friends with her for long. She can be friends with other people who also don’t feel that way. No problem then.
Someone I’ve formed some sort of bond of friendship with. I couldn’t really qualify it, it’s one of those “I know it when I see it” things. I did in fact once refuse to sleep with someone whose girlfriend I only barely knew, because our acquaintance-ship, casual as it was, was very warm on the rare occasions we had met. Case by case basis I guess.
I mightn’t even need there to be something in it for me. I don’t think there’s anything particularly sacred in the mere existence of a contract, it depends what the contract is. In A. Hunter’s example, even if the son had signed a contract with his father, I’d probably still sell him the ham sandwich (assuming the father wasn’t a friend who I felt an obligation not to betray). Their family problems are not my business.
:shrug: It seems to me that you don’t want to acknowledge that when someone helps him do the bad thing, the outcome may be different than when someone else refuses to help him do the bad thing. The someone else is an important component to the outcome. And different outcomes can mean different levels of pain to another person.
Could you be more specific? In what cases is it okay to help someone else do something wrong because they are going to do it anyway? And why should it be okay to help someone else do something wrong and hurtful anyway?
So why shouldn’t your best friend sleep with your husband? Because pain happens. He’s gonna do it anyway, and after all, pain happens.
So what’s the big deal if a friend boinks your husband? Why shouldn’t she just tell herself that “pain happens.” She can look at you and your behavior, (helping other men lie and be gutless with their wives) and she might figure that why would you mind if she did to you what you’ve done to these other men’s wives?
Because pain happens, after all.
And do you choose which husbands to sleep with based on how friendly you are with their wives? Would you sleep with a man whose wife you sorta knew, but felt no real “warmth” for? And if you would, how could you know that she didn’t feel more “warmth” for you than you did for her, and therefore would feel “betrayed” if she found out about you sleeping with her husband?
What contracts should be respected, and what contracts should be ignored? What contracts would you help enable someone else to break and lie about later? For instance, are there specific business contracts that you would help enable someone else to break (and lie about)? Are there specific personal vows or promises that you’d help someone break, and then lie about later? And why wouldn’t you suggest (rather than enable the person to continue to be so gutless) that the person who wants to break their contract be up front and open about their desires? After all, the end result will be the same–they will break their contract. But they’ll do it with the other party being informed and up to speed on what is going on. Why is it preferable to enable them to lie and be gutless instead?
Does it for me, too. If I come home and She With Whom I Do the Erotic is at play with the building superintendent or the neighbor, I will apologize for interrupting and close the door quietly and come back later. I’ve never understood this “I love you therefore please promise me that if you feel like boinking someone else that you find cute, you won’t” business.
And it seems to me that you don’t grasp the fact that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT “OUTCOMES”. I’m only addressing what it says about the person committing the act.
No. Case by case basis, again.
Answered several times already.
I don’t “choose husbands to sleep with”. Back in the day when I used to have casual sex, I chose men to sleep with and some of them turned out to be already in relationships. It’s not like I went around going “Hmm, which married man am I gonna do tonight” :rolleyes:
It’s happened … twice, I think. Actually she wasn’t a wife in either case, just a steady girlfriend. Again, I would have to make the decision based on the actual person.
I’d feel bad if it did happen, yeah, but I can guarantee you there was no chance of that in either of the two cases when I knew the SO.
Sure there would be, but I’m not going to put together a laundry list for you.
And we’ve agreed that the person who initiates the act (or makes attempts) is a bum.
But what about the person who helps? What kind of person are they? And are they not also “committing an act” as well? The act of helping enable a certain outcome?
Oh wait. You don’t want to talk about them. But, then again, that’s kind of what this whole discussion has been about.
Ah, I see. “I think it’s sometimes okay to help other people do bad and hurtful things, but I can’t tell you in which instances it’s okay. Just that sometimes it is.”
Well, that’s about as clear as mud.
Not really. In fact, your reasoning on this is also as clear as mud. “Pain happens,” but it’s not okay if a friend does it. But it’s okay if you do it to a stranger. Because somehow the person who you help betray won’t be hurt as much, and after all, their husband was going to betray them anyway, so why not help him out?
And also there are those unnamed and unspecified instances of where helping someone do something gutless and harmful to someone else is okay. But sometimes it’s not okay. But you won’t specify when it’s okay or not okay.
Yeesh.
Oh, well, that makes it all better then.
No, I was being somewhat facetous–I didn’t think you went cruising for married guys. On the other hand, you seem to have drawn a line in the sand regarding which married guys you will boink, and which you won’t, based on the relationship you have (or don’t have) with their wives. So it’s okay to help in the deception and hurt of certain wives, simply because you don’t know them.
Because “pain happens.” So as long as the person getting the pain foisted upon them is a stranger, hey–that’s just fine.
I don’t expect you to answer, but I do find it telling that you refuse to specify what contracts (and vows) are okay to enable someone else to break, and also in which instances it’s okay to help someone else do something bad and harmful to someone else.
I fail to see why it would be so difficult to come up with a few examples.
And when he said, “No, I’d rather remain a lying gutless weasel, and I’d still like you to help me remain this way.” you responded with, “Okay then. No problem. Since you’re determined to do it anyway, I might as well help you.” Is that how it went?
Well, we can see one of the answers to the OP in raudh’s posts. Women don’t like sluts because they’ll bonk their husbands and think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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