>>Yes mechanics and technicians often buy their own tools but for teachers it is an ongoing expense that can get up to hundreds of dollars every year. <<
OK, say $500 based upon, say, a $50,000 salary (not even counting generous benefits). That woud be…1% (given benefits, under 1%).
To me, that would be a failure in math &/or logic &/or an attempt to make a point (aka education in making a logical argument).
So what are you actually being paid for?
Here is the big problem.
I got a report today that my child failed to name the three most common trees in Oregon.
Why is that important!?!
How many teachers can answer what the three most common trees are in New Jersey? Or Somalia? Or Beaver County? (Without Googling it.)
Why is that important?
That is why teachers aren’t respected.
I would need to know what grade/subject was being taught (I am guessing it was in Oregon, let me know if not) to be sure but…
That sounds like it has nothing to do with teachers but rather with the people who are writing your state standards and telling them what to teach. If you don’t like what is being taught take it up with the higher ups, teachers (largely) only get to choose how it’s taught.
EVERY TIME I try to move to Canada I get told that I can’t. It’s like you guys don’t want me to emigrate.
Seriously though, what are Canadian thoughts on arts education? It’s kind of a side bar but I am hoping that is better up north too, not because I want to move but because I want some good news.
I would actually argue that when I walk through the woods and I know what I am seeing–not every tree, but many of them, along with types of birds and geologic formations and plants, I am getting more out of it than a person who just sees “plants and stuff”; I see a system and a story.
Also, memory is a learned skill. When your child is sitting in a meeting in 20 years and the person giving the powerpoint is using sales data from the wrong year, it would be great if someone sitting there could just recognize that it’s wrong before they make decisions based on it.
The point is probably not to be able to recall the most common trees in Oregon.
The most common trees in Oregon are probably being used to illustrate:
This knowledge is the foundation of understanding ecosystems, as well as scientific observation. Learning to identify plants in a particular environment is the beginning of learning how to observe nature in an objective way, which is the first step of the scientific method. And understanding biodiversity is the first step towards understanding how things in an environment work together as a whole.
There is an issue of curriculum, the teacher has to meet certain standards and criteria, if this is a requirement than it has to be taught - just as you may have unlikely and unwelcome requirements in your ow field of work.
Next, merely because you cannot understand why something is or is not important, is not at all important - educators never know which item or topic will stick with any particular child - but most of us picked up on one particular thing and this has informed many of their life decisions, from the degree they took, though to their employment and perhaps into they ow personal hobby.
Next, its called enrichment the idea is to expose a learner to many new ideas and and a wider perspective, instead of having programmed individuals capable of carrying out just one thing in life - to serve an employer - the aim is to allow an individual to grow, to see the world around them and choose.
It would be such a poor existence if all we could do is just learn work related activity, and it would be also detrimental because our economy needs people to have alternate ideas, hobbies interests and inspiration,
I am pretty sure some of the stuff you think it terribly important that you learned at school actually matters not one jot to the vast majority of the population - how about we narrow your learning down so much that we remove that one part of your learning and concentrate on teaching you how to tighten half a dozen nuts and bolts on a production line, its more important than what you do now.
It’s part of the learning process. Your child is being taught* to learn*. The kid was taught those trees, part of the learning process is being able to retain info and be able to regurgitate it.
And it’s useful and informative.
How much do have to pay out of pocket for your office supplies?
>>How much do have to pay out of pocket for your office supplies? <<
100%.
The point is that one percent isn’t something to cry about. If that is your biggest problem, then, dang, bail out.
Teachers aren’t responsible for crap like that; administrators, school boards, and liability insurers are.
>>It’s part of the learning process. Your child is being taught to learn. The kid was taught those trees, part of the learning process is being able to retain info and be able to regurgitate it<<
They didn’t need to go to school to learn how to regurgitate.They are quite capable of that. And regurgitating is a body’s attempt to rid itself of harmful substances. Not a good analogy.
Being taught to learn is good. But how many kids are turned off of learning by being forced to learn stupid crap. How about teaching them CPR steps? They would be learning and would be learning something usefull. That would be a 2-fer.
Learning what tree label is most popular in some kind of arbitrarily determined political boundary…wtf?
My point is that there is a lot of good stuff to learn and the educational industry has failed to differentiate trivia from important stuff or even potentially important stuff.
But I may be wrong. Teach me.
CPR doesn’t work too often in many cases, you likely need to be certified regularly, and have the temperament to not choke under pressure. It’s certainly not something that needs to be taught to everyone at the expense of educational time.
I agree, it’s just as unimportant as learning how you quote people properly on a message board :D. But seriously, how many lessons, facts, or concepts from school do you think you will use or remember? Can you correctly label a chemical compound or solve a quadratic equation? Do you know the difference between the past and the past perfect tenses? Like most, you will forget most of these pieces of information, but learning them typically imparts benefits long after the details are lost to time.
I am guessing your kid is fairly young from your example. You asked why it’s important to teach someone the names of the most popular trees in their area. For young kids, it’s important to get them to appreciate that there are many other people attempting to understand, categorize, and identify things in this world for our collective benefit. Kids need to understand that trees are not just “trees”, but that they have different needs, uses, names, characteristics, etc. It gets them to appreciate their role in the world, and the vastness of the world we live in. Furthermore, it makes the start to appreciate detail and nuance, and how to differentiate seemingly like things. Lastly, it teaches them how to find out information, and answer questions. There is also that chance that it sparks a lifelong interest in trees and nature.
Additionally (and maybe most importantly), your daughter needs to memorize these things because the person in charge told her to. Frankly, one of the reasons why are education system is sub-par is because there are too many parents making excuses for their under-performing kids. It’s not as if the teachers asked her to memorize a string of random numbers to be cruel. There are perfectly understandable reasons to teach such “trivia”.
Besides, did you ever ask the teacher why they were leaning this before you wrote it off as a useless exercise? The bottom line is that one of the best and most useful lessons kids are taught in school is to follow directions, and do as you are told (obviously within reason). The fact that your kid failed to do so is the problem, not that what she was told to do is too meaningless (in your estimation) to bother accomplishing.
Look, if you really think there is so much trivia being taught, what are you doing about it? How many board meetings have you been to? Regardless of what you may think, the vast majority of people in the education industry (from teachers to administrators) are not just trying to fill your kid with trivia. They are (by and large) smart, educated people who put a lot of thought and care into utilizing the limited time they have in the classroom to effectively educate and socialize your kid largely for your benefit. Yes, they make mistakes, but I think one’s default stance should be to defer to their perspective on things rather than excuse failure.
[QUOTE=WhyWhyWhy;16106817Learning what tree label is most popular in some kind of arbitrarily determined political boundary…wtf?.[/QUOTE]
“arbitrarily determined political boundary”, a STATE?:dubious: You don’t think the States are important, that your kid can go thru his life saying “I live in some arbitrarily determined political boundary”.:rolleyes:
It’s important because your child is being taught the discipline of being assigned an intellectual task and then delivering the results in a timely manner. As you said, it takes two seconds to Google it. So yeah, as a teacher, I would wonder why your child didn’t bother to do it.
As your continues his education, grows up, and joins the ranks of really any job, they will be assigned similar tasks. Arbitrarily deciding certain tasks are “not important” won’t cut it.
By the way, it’s the Douglas Fir, the Red Alder and the Bigleaf Maple.
I can see why teachers find their job frustrating. What with parents arbitrarily deciding what their kids are being taught is “stupid”. That’s a great mindset to pass onto your children. That the only tasks worth doing are the ones you think are important. It’s probably why every freakin kid I interview thinks he wants to be Vice President of Bullshit in 6 months but can’t do the basic tasks asked of him.
There’s a meme going around on the Internet that claims that Finnish teachers are “as respected as doctors and lawyers”; it’s the only relatively non-quantifiable claim made in it, IIRC. Is this so, Finnish Dopers?
I agree with you from the perspective that those mentioned set out the guidelines. But it’s the teacher who interprets the guideline. I guess I expect someone who deals in education to have a certain level of common sense. Maybe that’s not fair to expect it of teachers but I do.
Honestly, I think this is somehow tied to the mentality that teachers need a masters degree in “how to teach” and that is desired above the skill of knowing the subjects taught. I wish I had more time to articulate the idea. No pun intended but I think we should go back and do it “old school”. Drop the grading curve and concentrate on cramming the basics in. If we can’t drop the grading curve than give 2 grades. The real grade and the curved grade. Kids should know where they stand in life. But I’m wandering off subject.
Hell, he seems to think that his kid learning the *name of the state they live in, *or as he sez “arbitrarily determined political boundary”, is “stupid” too.
Since NCLB, every teacher needs to demonstrate that they know their subject at least at the level being taught.
I don’t understand the logic that if you know your subject really well that you are automatically a great teacher. Do you honestly believe that if we took PhDs out of the university and plopped them down in elementary and middle and high schools that the level of education would be better or even the same? Do you think that we don’t need to know how kids learn in order to teach them? You don’t think pedagogy is a necessary (and learned) skill in the classroom?
It doesn’t make you a great teacher. But not knowing the material DOES make you a bad teacher.
Yes, I honestly believe people who understand a subject thoroughly are able to teach it better. Apply that logic to any discipline and you get the same results. Doctors, engineers, accountants, surgeons… It works across the board.
It’s actually that if you don’t know your subject well that you won’t be able to teach it even if you have amazing teaching skills.
Our daughter’s current teacher is not so good with math. He can certainly do the math she is doing (she is in grade four after all) but he can’t see what she is struggling with since he isn’t that versed in it. That works out fine in the case of our family (I have a BMath) where I can pick up the slack at home but what if I were just a standard Joe? My daughter would keep falling further behind.
Now, obviously, having a PhD doesn’t help one teach. You need teaching skills, too. But having those skills without a high level of knowledge and understanding in all the things you are teaching means you will fail just as badly as that PhD with no teaching skills.