Why are the Chinese so different?

[Windwalker]

Hmm. Interesting. I’ve been living in Shanghai for the past 10 months, and taken quite a few trips to small towns and the countryside, and I’m quite surprised at some of the comments…

That said, in my experience throughout China, the Chinese brush their teeth obsessively.

Woah! Really? Even in Shanghai, I can’t count how many sets of mangled teeth I’ve seen. Kids are better, but even some of the teenagers have pretty horrible-looking munchers. I guess I’d equate them with the Brits?

For example I have bought second hand books that have been used by Chinese people and the books have strong sulfurous smell. This same smell is on many Chinese people. A friend of mine who is of Chinese decent suggests it might be from herbal remedies. Is this true?

Hmm, I can’t say I smell anything different between Chinese and foreigners here in Shanghai. Most Chinese don’t use deodorant; could that be it?

When I was living in student housing at UBC there were many Chinese students around, mostly coming from very rural areas. They’d tend to bring their whole families over too (or at least a set of grandparents) and live in very cramped conditions. Having six or eight people living in a one-bedroom apartment was common.

Is Canada really that easy to get into? For my students, making it to a western country, even just to study, seems a monumental task that only the very wealthy (~top 1%) and well-educated/well-connected can achieve. I’m surprised that a bunch of poor rural folks managed it in such a large group. Were they refugees of some sort?

As for the general notion that a large portion of the Chinese populace don’t have any awareness of the rest of the world, have you overlooked the ubiquiousness of radio and (especially) television in China? Even people too poor to afford a vehicle can scrounge up a cheap-ass TV and VCD player, both for personal entertainment and for following what’s out in the rest of the world.

Yep. I’ve seen towns of crappy wooden hovels in the middle of Sichuan where seemingly every residence had a satellite dish. Kinda cool

As for the Chinese being so different, well, they are in some ways. But in the big cities, the differences are shrinking as the people conform to the West. Spitting is now confined to the outdoors in Shanghai, snorking is on the wane, and some people actually respect queues and the concept of noise pollution (too few, but hey :)). Out in the countryside, it’s a bit earlier on the track; for example, I have seen moms let their kids piss in the aisle next to their seat on the train. But, ya know, those habits will change eventually, as well.

The biggest real difference I’ve encountered between Chinese and westerners has been the relative lack of imagination I’ve seen in my students and in folks I’ve met either in the city or countryside. This manifests itself both as a greater tendancy towards conformity and less production of strange or unconventional ideas. For example, students doing creative writing often just replicate old fables, be they Chinese or Western. Or 2nd conditional exercies (hypotheticals) get absolutely predictable results (If I had a million dollars, I would buy a house). When teaching Europeans and South Americans, I could always expect some weird stuff to come out, but Chinese tend not to produce such things. Of course, there are many exceptions (especially at the younger ages), but from what I’ve seen of the education system, conformity is systematically ingrained. I mean, by the time they get to high school, students often do 4-5 hours of homework a night, a lot of which simply consists of copying and rote drills (I wince at what often passes for English homework).

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@BrainGlutton

I think that sums it up. For most of their history the Chinese have known that their country was the most important and civilized country in the world. There were the Chinese, at the Center, and there were the “Four Barbarians” (the Barbarian peoples of the North, South, East and West). That attitude, more than physical isolation, has tended to insulate them from foreign influences, and make them, well, different.

'Course, one could observe this about the French and the Brits prior to WWII, or Americans today.

Stranger

[Loopydude]

My sub-group at work has expanded recently to seven individuals, and all but myself were born and raised in China. Only three of us are what I would consider fluent in English. My whole dept. is almosts 50% Mainland Chinese; and the number would be higher if you count those of Chinese extraction who grew up outside of China. Given that English is presently the de facto language of world science, at my group meetings, I may as well be in China.

And, yeah, as much as it offends my sensibilities sometimes to admit it, my perception of them is they ain’t from ‘round heah. I’ve been somewhat chastened by the accusations of overgeneralizing when I’ve complained in the Pit about what I feel are my cow-irkers’ attrocious table manners. I swear, in a year I saw more partially masticated food than in the rest of my life put together eating at a table with two younger siblings. But, apparently, I’ve just landed with a concentration of folks whose eating habits are a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum one might encounter in China. Indeed, many of them are from cities quite distant from the more cosmopolitan cities like Shanghai.

The feeding I can get used to.

I find communication with the Chinese still to be mastering the art of interpreting what is, at times, a crafty form of passive agression. There is a veneer of politesse that makes it, to this day, impossible for me to discern what is really being said. “No” is rare; rather, there are more often shades of “yes” ranging from the negative to the affirmative. Apparently there are reliable ways to decode “yes”, but I’ve yet to find the sure-fire key. Debate often comes off like a game of seeing how well one can damn the other with faint praise while avoiding open criticism. My first mentor/boss was Israeli. The Israelis are not known for their subtle means of expression. I began learning about doing science with a person who would literally back me into a corner, while waving her arms above her head, speaking at a volume best characterized as a low yell, during normal debates. It was unnerving at first, but I grew to love it. Later, I learned research around what happened to a bunch of Italians. Man were they fun; too much fun, sometimes, as half of them were sleeping with one another, and I stumbled into into class or the lab too many days hung over and hoarse from second-hand smoke.

I’ve seen my Chinese colleagues cut loose themselves on occasion, but it’s just not something I can easily adapt to. Humor and jest just don’t translate well into an American analogue sometimes; things I say go rocketing overhead, and visa versa. Sarcasm is especially difficult. This has been good for me, actually, because my sense of humor is often so sarcastic it puts people off. In fact, I sometimed find it hard to be funny without some sort of satirical edge in my delivery, and being forced out of it has expanded my repertoire somewhat. I can’t say I’ve anywhere near mastered the art of being polite, but I’m working on it.

I guess I just have to admit I’m horrifyingly brusque by Chinese standards, and for some strange reason I find this a preferable way for people to relate to one another. I try to cut through what I perceive to be the B.S. like a bull in a (heh) China shop; but I always figured when your talking about interpreting data, especially then, that’s when the kid gloves have to come off. That’s how I was “raised” anyway; and too a pretty significant extent, that’s the nature of my French Canadian family as well: We say exactly what we think; we yell a lot, and clean up the messes later; we’re something of a different breed than the stereotypically laconic Maine Yankees.

The Chinese I know just approach stuff differently than I do, man. I honestly like the folks I work with a lot, but I fear we may never really, truly connect. Time will tell.

[antechinus]

@windwalker

Hmm, I can’t say I smell anything different between Chinese and foreigners here in Shanghai. Most Chinese don’t use deodorant; could that be it?

No. It isnt a personal hygine smell - more of decaying vegetable matter. Thanks for trying to answer seriously though. I am curious.

As for

@brainglutton

Sulfurous smell . . . omigod, they really are demons!

Oh, yeh? So’s yer old man!

You just couldn’t resist. The rolleyes don’t go back far enough.

[jjimm]

[Hijack] Shanghai dopers: my wife and I are going to be arriving in Shanghai tomorrow for about three days on our way to Beijing. I’d really appreciate hearing of any off-the-tourist-trail things to see or do, or even hooking up for a tsingtao or two if anyone’s at a loose end, though I realise it’s rather short notice. Mail me! [/hijack]

[furt]

@Stranger On A Train

'Course, one could observe this about the French and the Brits prior to WWII, or Americans today.

Not really; historically even the most egocentric western nations were obliged to acknowledge their rival’s virtues. Note the way that English speakers resort to French when they want to appear possessed of a certain je ne sais quois.

Historically, China regarded foreigners as barbarians pretty much by definition.

[China_Guy]

@jjimm

[Hijack] Shanghai dopers: my wife and I are going to be arriving in Shanghai tomorrow for about three days on our way to Beijing. I’d really appreciate hearing of any off-the-tourist-trail things to see or do, or even hooking up for a tsingtao or two if anyone’s at a loose end, though I realise it’s rather short notice. Mail me! [/hijack]

I’m swamped at work and have 2 month old twins at home so I’ve got to pass. Cool things to do.

-If you like Museums: Shanghai Museum. Nearby is the city planning department/museum.
-Visit one of the river towns. My vote goes to Zhujiajiao because it’s closest. Zhouzhuang and Tongli are both a bit better but much further drive away. You can buy all the tacky tourist stuff you could possibly want at any of these places.
-XiangYangLu Market: you can find a lot of good stuff here. Very little of it real though. This is the pirate market. nearby shops have the good pirated stuff, and quality and prices go up as you go to higher floors.
-temples are not very good, but if you have to go to one, the Jade Buddha is better.
-Chenghuamiao is real tourisity. It’s kinda cool, the garden is worth going into if you want to see an ancient chinese garden. Best part is you’ll need a guidebook, but there is a restaurant that is pretty grotty but has absolutely the best “xiaolongbao” dumplings on the planet.

Really, Shanghai is pretty weak on sites. It’s a great place to wander around though. For the historic stuff, go to beijing.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

[QUOTE=furt]
Not really; historically even the most egocentric western nations were obliged to acknowledge their rival’s virtues. Note the way that English speakers resort to French when they want to appear possessed of a certain je ne sais quois.
I was thinking more of the French in relation to Southwest Asia, the British in relation to the Subcontinent, and Americans in relations to…well, anyone that’s not from Europe. In the circles where my job requires me to travel, non-Europeans are pretty much considered either a bunch of ingratiating crooks or knuckle-dragging primates.

But, what goes around comes around. I just hope I’m not around when it happens.

Stranger

[DeepMauve]

Why is a person’s ‘normality’ based on their ability to assimilate into the North American culture? Sure, they’er going to be quite different from you having grown up in a different social, political and economic culture. In very different systems, these differences can seem almost alien. Them to you and you to them.

Have you ever spent a significant time with a person from Chad? How about Niger? What about Finland? In each case you’re going to rate them less ‘normal’ based on how similar their upbringnig was to yours, whether you’re aware of their upbringing or not. If someone from Japan seems a lot more ‘associable’ to you, then it may have to do with the fact that Japan is a democracy with a social system similar enough to North America (with the obvious sexist/workplace differences) to seem more ‘normal’.

In any event, you’re what you’re witnissing is just the normal result of anyone’s given personal bias of normality based upon their own experiences. The only thing you can do is to step out of your own shows far enough to accept that there is NO standard of absolute normality, but only relative normalities based upon any given context. Once you’re at that viewpoint, you can see the oddities of all cultures and attempt to observe the natural development of the common cultural habits of others.

For example, wouldn’t someone from pre-modern Russia have found it amazingly odd that we would not only sit and watch ‘commercials’ of our own free will, where companies told us how amazing their own products were (like they’d admit that they’re garbage) and then we’d develop an obsession over that product so strong that we’d actually be willing to buy the product at %500 it’s face value (Tickle Me Elmo anyone?). I mean, this may seem ‘normal’ to you, but absolutely ridiculous to someone from another culture.

Another example would be the breast incident at the Super Bowl. Half of the population can see the same thing by looking in the mirror (while the other half gets a second credit card to see more of it at ‘incredibly low rates’ on the internet). Yet, put it on TV and everyone loses it!! From the viewpoint of a European, sexually liberal country, this is the most absurd behaviour that could be imagined.

Take a look at the world around you and realize how ridiculous it actually is.

[DanBlather]

@Abe

Interesting – I asked when I was in the Forbidden City (it was actually 2000 or 2001, so 4 or 5 years ago) and they told me the same thing. But I didn’t see a shred of renovation at that time, just a thick layer of dust and filth accumulating everywhere. They let visitors wander freely on the grounds, but the majority of buildings – even the large pagoda-style buildings with huge doorless gates – were closed off.

I peeked inside past the barriers (of course) and I saw a lot of dusty riches, but no work in progress whatsoever. It definitely struck me as a case of the Party struggling to come to grips with the magnificence and opulence of pre-Communist China.

Actually, the KMT took the royal treasures to Taiwan.

[roger_thornhill]

In a word, because they do not share the same Judeo-Christian background that most of the rest of us in the “West” do share.

A good text on what makes Chinese different is “The Ugly Chinaman”, which was written by a Chinese man, Bo Yang, who was born in mainland China and spent most of his adult life in Taiwan, much of it in prison.

I don’t know if it’s available online, but if it isn’t and if anyone is interested, I’ll dig it up and quote bits to give a flavour of his beliefs. He talks a lot about the inability of Chinese people to get along with each other, and about their jealousy. At one point, before he takes his first trip abroad, a friend of his challenged him not to come back and say “Chinese people are the same all over the world”. When he got back from the States, he saw his friend and said “Sorry, but Chinese people really are…”.

Our kid goes to a Chinese-language primary school (albeit a private one, the state schools here are pretty crappy), as we want her to grow up not only with good written Chinese (Cantonese is her mother('s) tongue, so no problem there - but the written language is a bugger to learn) but also with a healthy attitude towards both cultures.

One further anecdote which might interest. My (Chinese) wife - whose an English teacher, so communication isn’t any more of a problem generally than it would be between two people from the same background - has just gone through a phase of reading lots of books (in English) with Chinese-related themes. Thus, two of Iris Chang’s books (Rape of Nanking and the one about the scientist) and a number of other books. One observation she makes is that books written by Westerners (into which category she would put Chang, as someone born and educated in the West) about China or the Chinese are much more interesting and informative than those written by China- or Chinatown-based Chinese authors. More desire to find and tell the truth; less propaganda.

One completely unsolicited book recommendation for anyone seeking a good book about China, and especially about the effect of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution on the Chinese psyche: Life and Death in Shanghai, by Nien Ching. Knocks spots off other books, which have an enormous tendency to self-promotion, e.g. Jung Chang’s Wild Swans, which is also good, but exemplifies what Bo Yang calls the Chinese love of showing off.

[Abe]

@DanBlather

Actually, the KMT took the royal treasures to Taiwan.

I wasn’t referring to the royal treasures, merely to dusty riches. The KMT certainly didn’t take the intricately carved and worked buildings of the City with them. Nor, it seems, a good deal of the larger items of furniture. Nor the gilded surfaces, etc.

I’ve very rarely seen a piece of important national heritage in a state like the Forbidden City. [Slight hyperbole ahead] I saw more dust in the various semi-open air buildings of the City’s stone courtyards, right in the middle of Beijing, than I saw in a freshly opened Egyptian tomb.

[jjimm]

@China Guy

I’m swamped at work and have 2 month old twins at home so I’ve got to pass. Cool things to do.

No worries, I’ve been following your familial trials and I understand completely. Thanks very much for your advice though.

Really, Shanghai is pretty weak on sites. It’s a great place to wander around though. For the historic stuff, go to beijing.

I get that impression from the guidebook. Looking forward to it anyway. In fact, rather excited.

[litost]

@even sven

India, for me, was as exotic as I could imagine anything being. I was swept away by sultans palaces and dim smoky temples and ancient caves. They waggle their head to say yes or no, they wear giant mirriored veils and the men wear pink flowered skirts, they walk around the train station carrying flower-strewn tridents, they hang around on elephants and camels for gods sake.

Just wow. Palaces, caves may be exotic but most historical things are. It isn’t a part of contemporary Indian culture. Temples are only as exotic as any other place of worship and as for the elephants and camels… what % of Indians you think ride an elephant or a camel to work?

[China_Guy]

@jjimm

No worries, I’ve been following your familial trials and I understand completely. Thanks very much for your advice though.I get that impression from the guidebook. Looking forward to it anyway. In fact, rather excited.

Bet you never expected to see snow on the ground in Shanghai either

[jjimm]

@China Guy

Bet you never expected to see snow on the ground in Shanghai either

That was quite unexpected, I must say. Bits of ice were falling on my head off the top of tall buildings all day!

[China_Guy]

You might want to go to O’Malleys on Taojiang Road, about 100 meters from the US embassy. Or Sasha’s, which is around the block on Hengshan Road. Both are in old pre-liberation villa’s. It’s pretty cool, especially if you feel like a Guinness or Murphy’s stout as well.

A couple of doors down from O’Malley’s is Xinjishi Restaurant. We go there occaisionally and it has some pretty tasty Shanghaiese food. I live about a km away

Maybe you can post on this thread some of the Chinese things you notice like spitting or other stereotypical things mentioned in this thread.