Why Aren't "Liberated Women", Liberated?

This is the sort of interchange that I anticipated for this thread. Thank you all for participating.

I too am a man who would rather not force himself upon a woman in any way without unmistakable signals being given beforehand. Please see this thread for more about how I try to treat women.

Anyway, let’s keep the ball rolling. I think we’re beginning to get somewhere. Sadly, too many of the entrenched norms are still in effect for our society to shake them off very readily. One of the most damaging being that if a woman makes the first move, she is perceived as a slut. This sick bit of tradition needs to die off with the chauvinistic barefoot and pregnant syndrome.

You know, sometimes it’s hard to be a “liberated woman” when I was raised not to be. My mother always told me to wait for a boy to make the first move, to call, to ask me out, etc… because “a lady doesn’t go around chasing men. Hussies do*.” I tell you, it’s a hard habit to break, and it’s a little frustrating nowadays when men expect women to make the first move, because honestly, I just can’t do it. It’s like not belching at the dinner table, saying please and thank you, or watching my mouth in front of my elders: it’s ingrained into my personality, and not easy to remove.

About the return call–I’ve always either sent a thank you note via snail mail or e-mail about having a pleasant evening, especially if it really was a nice date. Even this has backfired, as one date I thought things went rather well, and sent him an e-mail thanking him, and suggesting that maybe we catch a movie or something next week (by God, I’m trying to be a modern woman here!), and my payback? He emailed me back, saying, “I’m the type of person that prefers no company at all rather than bad company.” Ouch. Needless to say, that made me think twice about contacting a man after a date, but has not stopped me. So, be kind if she hasn’t called you–she may have been burned like this, too.

Thankfully, I’ve been dating someone that comes from the old school of dating, too (we are both in our 20’s, but were raised with our parent’s 50’s sensibilities). He made the first move, paid for the first date, and didn’t try to grope me. He was pleased that I sent an e-mail, and we went on another date. I soon found out that he was actually making less money than I did, so I immediately began picking up the tab half the time or paying my share–because that was only fair (I don’t care about modern or old-fashioned by this point, fair is still fair). We’ve been dating for a while now, partly, because we were both considerate to each other for the first part of our relationship (and for several other reasons, of course).

What I’m coming down to, is that this guy is a gentleman, and has been dating me for sometime, hence, there are women out there that appreciate gentlemen. We especially appreciate gentlemen when we’re looking for a long-term relationship and possibly marriage. She can’t handle a good man? It’s usually because she doesn’t know what the hell she wants.

*About the hussy thing. Yes, I’ve gone chasing men, and I’ve received what I wanted–even a lady wants to just get laid sometimes. But, these were men I wouldn’t normally want to spend any of my real free time with. When I’ve used my head rather than my nether-regions to select someone, I end up with a really nice guy.

Zenster,
If you haven’t already, please see this thread that I started for some insight into women making the first move (rather agressive in my proposed scenario).

BTW, I scared off the last guy I asked out to dinner. Friend-of-a-friend that I met when a group of us were out having drinks after work. He was perfectly happy to try to be a little grabby-huggy when he’d had a few. My friends said he was a really nice guy, you’d probably have fun, give him a call. I called to ask him to dinner a couple weeks later. Had a pleasant enough conversation, but when I called back after my vacation to make specific plans, he didn’t return my call. Then my friends said “Oh, he’s probably a little scared of women who are smarter than he is.” Note that I never implied in any way that I thought I was smarter than he was, but apparently his perception was “She’s an engineer and I’m just a tech writer.”

Gee porcupine, you’re just my type.

Crazy World, Huh?

Chris

I like guys bordering on the bad boy type. Don’t get me wrong, violence is not tolerated, for any reason, but demure sweet guys sometimes lack fire. I am a strong willed, agressive, ocassionally intellegent woman. I simply am, so much so that I can not down play it even when I try. (I did try for a while. It was painful.)

I have found I enjoy men who can match me. Who will see nothing wrong with debating, sometimes at the tops of our lungs, as a friendly activity. Who doesn’t have a problem with getting into psudo-wrestling matches with me. Who is happy to tell me that I’m full of shit and a bitch as well. If it is all done lovingly with an amount of respect I adore it. I also enjoy being able to curl up happily with an SO who will pet and coddle me. With a slight kick in the ass when I get too self pitying. I don’t need flowers, I do need acceptance and respect as a capable human being.

This seems to bother/frighten a lot of the sweet adorable guys. (Most of the remainder don’t get the point. “But you are a girl and girls need this…” “No, I am a human and I need to get off my whimpery butt and get back to work.”) The guys that can handle me (that sounds awful, but it is the simplest way to put it) are usually bad boy types. There are a lot more features that are needed, but the basic mold is big, powerful, and not always gentlemanly.

I do chase men, when I have the time to bother and a decent one is around. Actually, it is less a matter of chasing and more a matter of not playing games. I don’t have the time to be coy, thank you.

Gee, Zenster, you’re breaking my heart. :rolleyes: :smiley:

*demure sweet guys sometimes lack fire. […] I have found I enjoy men who can match me. Who will see nothing wrong with debating, sometimes at the tops of our lungs, as a friendly activity. Who doesn’t have a problem with getting into psudo-wrestling matches with me. Who is happy to tell me that I’m full of shit and a bitch as well. If it is all done lovingly with an amount of respect I adore it. […]

This seems to bother/frighten a lot of the sweet adorable guys. (Most of the remainder don’t get the point. “But you are a girl and girls need this…” “No, I am a human and I need to get off my whimpery butt and get back to work.”) The guys that can handle me (that sounds awful, but it is the simplest way to put it) are usually bad boy types. *

Interesting perspective, MC, but personally I haven’t found that most sweet guys are low on fire, or unable or unwilling to stand up to a strong-willed woman. They are more likely to zing her subtly than to criticize her belligerently when she needs taking down a peg [note to jshore in particular: this is not to be construed as an admission that I ever need taking down a peg! ;)], but they don’t really scare that easily. Not the smart ones, anyway.

*There are a lot more features that are needed, but the basic mold is big, powerful, and not always gentlemanly. *

Eh, well, whatever floats your boat. I’m glad they don’t all come out of that mold, though.

No they don’t. A few sweet hearts are also wickedly fun, but these are the generalities I have found.

These are helped out by the fact that I’m still pretty young and young guys are not always the most complete of people.

I’m not saying its not possible. (Please, God, make it possible. Give me one…) I’m just saying what I have found. In my /sarcasm massive experiance of human nature. /sarcasm

Gr8Kat said

actually, I said “my” liberated female friends. I did not say “all” . I have no idea what the majority of women think. In fact, I haven’t dated for 5 years, so I am really in the dark.

Kimstu, the problem with dating these days is that while you have one set of expectations for the man, others have vastly different ones. Payment for the meal is for one woman an insult, for another a requisite.

Personally, I am more comfortable when I know what the rules are. When they change by the person, it is tough to know how to act. Having certain social expectations is not the same as stating that women are inferior or weaker.

Mr. Z.: *Personally, I am more comfortable when I know what the rules are. When they change by the person, it is tough to know how to act. *

Well, why not just ask her?

Possibly because, for some women, asking such a question is against the rules.

Do you really want to be with a woman who thinks that following some kind of “rules” is more important than responding tactfully but honestly to a tactful but honest question? Sounds like a pretty good screening procedure to me.

If you know me, then you know that I would ask. But as it was pointed out, I have had my head handed to me for asking such a question.

The reason I like rules is because it is simpler. I am not talking about Big Brother, no independant thought rules. I am talking about the rules where you know to bring gifts to a wedding, or that you shake with the right hand, or that it is not OK to spit indoors. There are thoudsands of such rules that help us all get along. I don’t see why this one in particular is so suspect.

Mr. Z., I completely agree that etiquette rules are a great invention, which is one reason I seized the opportunity to repeat the point that etiquette no longer requires the man to do all the paying. Once we are all on the same page here, things will be much less complicated; I agree that a libertarian kind of make-up-your-own-rules attitude is not very useful when it comes to social convention (or, for that matter, to—oh skip it, I’ve started enough fights today already :)).

Trouble is that this is a relatively recent shift in convention, and one that involves gender relations, which are always tricky, as well as money, which is trickier still. Since a lot of people seem to be invoking an alternate etiquette rule along the lines of “whoever does the inviting does the paying” (which IMO makes it burdensome if you expect a guy always to be the one to initiate), I don’t think you can tell the difference except by asking.

I’d recommend something along the lines of “I feel this is my treat, since I asked you out; is that okay with you?”, which ought to be both generous and considerate enough for any woman. (If she asked you, on the other hand, just proceed normally for splitting the check, and if she wants to treat you she’ll correct you. Yes, the combination of these two does have you paying more than your fair share, and a decent liberated woman should notice that and put a stop to it. BTW, it has never been obligatory for a gentleman to pay the whole tab on a date initiated by the lady: that’s not dating, that’s gold-digging.)

Any woman who would hand you your head for that conduct is, I maintain, a waste of your time. Take back your head and go home.

You’re beating me, Zenster.