“Shooting a cop in self-defense” is a contradiction in terms.
Doesn’t matter. If we want to give the concept of lethal self-defense any weight whatsoever, then the person firing was morally justified to open fire. And if that person was not legally justified because the people looking and acting exactly like home invaders just so happened to be cops doing their jobs, then we have a major disconnect between morality and legality, which is never a good thing.
Alternatively, the cops could stop acting exactly like home invaders and we wouldn’t have this problem.
Lick harder, I see a bit of dog shit on that one.
Bullshit. If an on-duty cop is trying to rape or murder me, I have the right to defend myself against him as I would against any person trying to do such a thing. If my house is broken into in the middle of the night by people who don’t identify themselves and who could very easily be home invaders looking to kill me and loot my home, I should damn well have the right to defend myself whether or not these people might be cops.
A cop trying to rape or murder you is not doing their job. A cop, in uniform, with a warrant, is doing their job. The situations are not comparable. Why would you assume uniformed police are actually home invaders?
Not if they’re off duty, or if they’re attempting to do something that’s obviously never going to be part of their job, such as rape you. But in other situations, where the instructions they are giving you could be part of their job, you do as you are told and sort it out later, in court.
Well good for you for being on board that far at least.
You’re asking the wrong question. The question is, why would you ever assume that someone who just crashed through your window at 5:30 AM is a cop? They have not announced themselves as cops, it’s too dark to see their uniforms. You’re tired, confused, and scared for your life. If the person is a home invader with violent intentions, you may have seconds before they kill you.
In that situation, according to your ideal legal situation, you face an impossible choice. You can either hold your fire and pray that the invader is “just” a SWAT team that got the wrong address or bad intel and that they won’t kill you, or you shoot and pray that it is not a cop, and risk facing murder charges because your right to defend yourself is suddenly forfeit due to something you simply could not have known. That’s not okay. Something has to change. Either cops need to stop holding no-knock raids, or civilians need to not be faced with that kind of insane choice, to defend themselves and risk murder charges, or not and risk dying.
That is NOT all you were arguing over in the other thread. It was more a “they can do what the fuck they want”.
Nope. I repeatedly and clearly said don’t shoot cops doing their jobs, and if you’re not sure if they’re doing their jobs go along with it and sort it out in court.
To which I got ludicrous replies suggesting that police uniforms aren’t easily recognisable, that it’s not reasonable to expect someone to be able to tell if someone’s a cop or not, and that you should shoot anyone who comes into your house before you can tell if they’re a threat or not, whether they are your husband, your daughter, a cop, or a burglar. And I’m getting told this from people who think I’m too strongly in favour of self defence :smack:
Don’t shoot cops doing their jobs. Stop pretending that the vast majority of cops aren’t out there every day risking their lives (a small risk, but a genuine one none the less) to make your lives safer. They are not your enemy, unless you make them so.
By being a minority, right?
Like right here in my neck of the woods, where an entire police department thought it was a good idea to beat up black teens, and then expel them from their town, because, you know, they were black:
This wasn’t some lone wolf cop, either, and now the town is having problems removing the chief because of the support form his idiots in blue.
this is just one tiny example of a myriad examples out there as you well motherfucking know, of incompetent police officers or police officers engaging in criminal activity and facing ZERO or mild repercussions.
Oh no, you went WAY beyond that.
And you wrote as if you think the ONLY people with any right to self defense are the police.
So NO.
Nope, and every time someone claimed that I clarified it.
Nope, and every time someone claimed that I clarified it.
NO to you with knobs on.
In the dark they aren’t.
In the dark it’s not.
I don’t think you actually care about self-defense that much any more. I think you care about protecting cops, even the bad ones, and the stupid ones, far more than you care about people protecting themselves from threats.
Wrong on all counts. If you can see well enough to tell whether or not someone’s about to attack you, you can tell whether or not they’re wearing a police uniform. They are not subtle…
And if you think I mean anything other than I say, you’re wrong. I just don’t separate “cops”, even bad or stupid ones, from “people”. Unlike plenty of posters here, who want cops to wait until they’ve been shot to defend themselves, or think it’s easier to tell the difference between a real gun and a very close replica than to recognise a police uniform. It’s fucking stupid, if you actually believe it, and if you don’t it’s deliberate anti-police bias.
The police, in general, are risking their lives to make your life better, and deserve at least some respect for that. Individual officers may be bad, or stupid, or criminal, and deserve various responses to that, from a rebuke to life imprisonment. It doesn’t follow from that that any cop you meet is likely to be evil.
Life doesn’t work this way in the heat of the moment. There’s always tons of confusion in such moments. Add to that the possibility of counterfeit police uniforms, and there’s plenty of opportunity for genuine confusion during a possible home invasion.
You give the cops an incredible amount of latitude. Cops doing incredibly dumb or immoral shit aren’t doing their jobs. Their jobs are to serve and protect, not to break down the wrong doors, or beat the wrong people, or drive up within feet of children and shoot them, or tell someone to get their ID and then shoot them as they try to get their ID, or a million other dumb and/or immoral things.
Once police start showing respect to the community they serve it will be easier for the public to show them respect. Too many cops ( including you) feel they are above the law. It goes from the down right criminal abuses of power that others have mentioned to the simple “professional courtesy” of not giving a ticket to a cop who is speeding or driving dangerously. Once we have a day were four cops are not repeatedly kicking a person on the ground with several other cops pointing guns at the person there will be respect.
+1
When you get basic facts so wrong, having not bothered to check anything, your opinions are worthless.
Not shooting people when you are so confused you can’t recognise a police uniform would be a good start. They are not difficult to recognise.
Breaking down doors, using force to restrain violent people, dealing with armed people who have been seen waving a gun about, and identifying people are all part of their job. Even if you believe, in a specific incident, they are wrong about it, you shouldn’t resist, you should do as they say and question it in court later. That way no-one, police or otherwise, is unnecessarily harmed.
I notice in your silly examples you ignore that the people shot appeared to the police to be reaching for weapons. To ignore that, even if you believe the police were wrong to think that, is foolish and destroys your point.
You think it’s impossible to recognise a police uniform in the heat of the moment, but expect cops to tell the difference between a real and replica gun in the same situation. That’s a ridiculous double standard, and again destroys any argument you might have.
Thank you for proving that you truly are an arrogant, ignorant, and dipshit cop. You are exactly the kind of moron that divides communities and tarnishes the badge. While some of my facts may be off, it does not take away from the fact that there are many sadistic, savage fucks playing cops and robbers with realguns and real people. Maybe if you stopped drinking blue Kool aid long enough you would realize the damage that your “brothers and sisters” are doing.
Once again, when you get such a basic fact wrong, it renders your opinion worthless. That you can’t conceive of anyone who isn’t actually a cop suggesting that perhaps you shouldn’t shoot them on sight demonstrates your utter stupidity.