Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance?

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread dealing with Mel Gibson’s vanity project, The Passion of the Christ, I denigrated the intelligence and literacy of the intended audience by commenting that fundies would find reading the subtitles difficult, which elicited a unanimously negative reaction. I’m sorry for the hijack, but not for my attack on fundies.

Let us be clear, the term “fundies” denotes Christian fundamentalists, the people who think the Bible is a textbook, who believe that dinosaurs and humans lived together, who reject all modern thinking, and who have declared war on me and mine. No, Airman Doors, Jesuits are not fundies. Nor am I talking about liberal Christians. If people want to sing to invisible spirits on Sundays, good for them. I don’t share their beliefs, but they are by and large nice people.

No, I’m talking about the people who believe that the laws of the United States should be conformed to their bloody ignorant superstious bullshit cult, up to and including stoning me to death for being gay (the Constitution Party, which is on the ballot in 41 states and growing, prescribes criminal prosecution of gay people).

To the people who defend fundies,

Wise Up!

To quote Thomas Jefferson, “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

If fundies would keep their hate to their churches, I’d leave them alone. Until they stop trying to harm me and mine, I will fight them, even if I have to do it alone.

2

Appears you don’t agree with the golden rule part of religion either.

3

Appears you don’t pay attention. Being kind to people who want to hurt me is called “suicide.”

4

Well Gobear, this is the way I figure it.

Let’s say you know this guy, call him Fred. Fred is a real asshole. Fred is mean to everybody. Fred says and does indefensible things. Justifiably, you don’t like Fred. He pisses you off.

So you go up to Fred and you tell him he’s an asshole.

What have you accomplished?

As far as I can see, you haven’t done anything constructive. You’ve just given an outlet to your frustration. You’ve just attempted to hurt somebody else in order to make yourself feel good.

I submit to you, that when you start hurting people to make yourself feel good, you become a bit of an asshole. When you put yourself above other people you become an asshole. When your grievances become a rationalization for behavior that is otherwise unacceptable, you become an asshole.

People always justify hurting other people because “they deserved it.”

The fact is though, that we all deserve it. We really do.

So, it’s uncool in my opinion to indulge yourself in this fashion, though I myself am certainly a hypocrite for saying so.

That’s half of it.

The second half of it is that’s simply bad juju. You’re taking your rhetorical knife and you’re carving off a slice of people and labelling them as ignorant or unworthy based on a characteristic from which you cannot infer these qualities

Fundamentalist Christians aren’t bad people. Being fundamentalist doesn’t make them bad, stupid, or ignorant. However, when you start inferring they are that way, you’re making self that way a little bit. The more you do it, the further you go down that road.

5

He appears to have the “eye for an eye” part down, though.

6

Scylla,

I agree totally with your point #2, but I’m not sure if I agree with your first.

It’s true, hurting someone does no good, but neither does allowing them to believe their behavior is right/harmless, when in fact it is cruel and spiteful.

If I tell someone, “hey, you are cruel and spiteful,” while it may hurt them, it’s also important for them to know that their behaviour leads one to that conclusion. Though, then you need the important, “you are cruel and spiteful, and this is why that’s the case.” Throwing around names without making an effort to explain or be understood is useless; calling a spade a spade and then making clear to the spade what that spade does that makes it one (going on the assumption that the spade doesn’t really want to be a spade), is a good thing.
No obtuse metaphors were harmed in the making of this post.

7

I generally agree with you. There’s generally a pretty big thick well-demarcated line between constructive criticism and simple-name calling. The latter is simply self-indulgent.

8

I think it’s the difference between saying “Fred is cruel and mean” (true, in our example) and saying “Fred can’t hold down a job because he drinks too much” (an untrue potshot, presumably).

9

It’s very simple, gobear.

You did not contain your attack on “fundies” in that thread to their ideas. You attacked them as human beings. You said things about them that, if said about any other group, would not be acceptable on this board (outside the Pit).

And the operational problem with attacking “fundies” is that there is a continuum of religious beliefs in this country. Sure, there are some folks so far on the fringe that it’s hard to take them seriously. But there are many reasonably minded people who struggle every day to reconcile their religious beliefs with what they know about the world. You may think you know where to draw the line, but all you did was lump a bunch of undefined people into an undefined category.

You will not find anyone more atheist than me on this board. But that doesn’t mean I can’t respect those among us who believe in religion. To me it’s all the same. Christ resurected from the dead is just as believable or not believable as Noah’s flood.

Look at your first post in the non-Pit thread we’re talking about:

Substitute “nigger” for “fundie” and it should be crystal clear why you were **way ** off base.

What the **fuck ** was your purpose in posting that in a perfectly legitimate thread about a movie? Keep that shit in the Pit, and everything’s cool. Offering it up in the presence of intelligent conversation, and you’re nothing but a bigoted asshole. You got called on it. I hope you learn something from the experience.

10

gobear, you know me. I know you. I think you and I have come to a place, more or less, where you’ll give my thoughts more weight than you’d give some random stranger. So I hope you’ll take this suggestion to heart instead of doing what you earnestly believe many fundies do when they something about evolution.

Ignorance is ignorance. I have known, in my 22 years on this Earth, more than a few fundies. You, in your X years, have also known more than a few fundies. Some of the fundies we have known have been, shall we say, not the brighter bulb in a pack of two (I’m sure we could cite a few from this MB, but I’m also sure it’s nowhere near necessary). However, it is an improper and more than slightly demeaning generalization to make them all out to be uneducated troglodytes whose entire body of problems would be solved if they had but a library card in their pocket and enough gas in their cars (complete with Rapture bumper sticker) to get to said library.

It is possible for two people to examine the same material and to arrive at differing conclusions on the matter at hand. Hell, just today I was tutoring someone in Precal and we were looking at a group of points (homeschooling in the US from 1992 to 1997, in case anyone cared). At the book’s suggestion, we employed a linear regression formula to the points and a 2nd degree regression formula to the points. Both matched the points early on, so from the perspective of those first few points they were equally valid because the lines arrived at values that were approximately those of the original points - and equally invalid, because neither of them matched any point exactly.

Just so, it is possible for two people to dispassionately examine evidence regarding religion, or abortion, or sexuality, or gun control, and come to differing conclusions. This is probably one reason these issues are not yet resolved in this society;) That two people arrive at differing conclusions neither validates nor invalidates either’s position; it merely means they have arrived at differing ends.

Too, we must consider the title of your OP. If we are at war with ignorance, all ignorance must be combatted. The notion of all fundies in the world being uneducated bigots who would struggle to read plain English on a movie screen is ignorance just as the notion that the entirety of matter in the universe is at most 6000 years old is ignorance.

Lastly, I would submit to you that just as fundies fail to bring you closer to God by telling you where they believe (to whatever degree of sincerity) you’re going when you die, so too do you set your own cause back by exhibiting ignorance and hostility toward fundies. Hate does not breed rights. Action breeds rights, and the best action that comes from the hate displayed in your posts, both in that thread and this, is probably someone telling you, politely but firmly, that you’re not quite doing what you should be doing. The worse actions are those of people who think “man, that gay guy has issues with those fundies. They must be right about all those flaming drama queens”. Justified? I’d say no. But we must deal with the ugly reality of the situation rather than the preferred ideal (which ideal I am sure includes, for you, vastly fewer fundies and far more library cards issued to the teeming billions. And, of course, more bears:D).

11

Speaking of ignorance, gobear, this Southerner would like to offer a heartfelt fuck-you for including a “y’all” in the words you’ve so gleefully chucked into other people’s mouths.

Actually, let’s make that a “fuck y’all.”

12

THIS, Southerner, Jackelope, uses “y’all” every day, so you can bite me. I have to use the speech I know.

**Iampunha, I understand your position, but in this case you are dead wrong. First, fundies ARE ignoratn, just as people who belvie in pet psychics and dowsing are ignorant. They are credulous, superstitious fools, and no amount of your attwmots to cosmeticize the fact can change it. You can afford to talk because YOUR rights are not threatened. You maried a woman, so you are a good citizen and the fundamentalist president isn’t trying to have your relationship declared a fiction.

Yes, fundies are ignorant or the word has no meaning. The do not know about science, history, or other religions. They may not be stupid, but they are as clueless about the nature of the world as any caveman. No, I don’t actually expect them all to be semi-literate, but after all the smack I hear talked by them about me, they have it coming.

**Scylla[/b[, you act as if my ire were unprovoked. I suggest you wake up and look around to see who the aggressors and who are the aggressees.

13

Gobear,

My friend, I consider myself to be a fundamentalist Christian. My definition does not exactly correspond to that of every other person claiming to be a fundamentalist Christian. However, my faith is certainly as much at odds with one sect as another, and not much more than each is with each other. So, I must assume from your posts that you consider me to be an ignorant, bigoted, hate monger, recently arrived from some rural social milieu, fostering my illiterate philosophy. You seem assured that my limited verbal skills preclude any real chance of bettering myself in the world of academic learning. You seem to feel that the world of truly enlightened folks would be best served if I stopped speaking at all, and maintained a respectful acceptance to your views on pretty much anything.

Surprisingly, I feel that that assessment is in error. Perhaps that error is based on ignorance. And we must fight all ignorance, now mustn’t we?

Gobear, your conduct with respect to “fundies” on this board reminds me of that fateful day when the KKK was on Springer. The audience of that show made the KKK look reasonable, and intelligent in their views, their logic, and their behavior. You are not doing quite as well as that audience when you try to fight the ignorance of “fundies” as you have been.

I don’t think you really hate me. I am pretty sure you know that I don’t hate you. But you seem to be unaware that I have an opinion of you based on you, not on some demographic group to which I have assigned you. I only ask that you offer me that same courtesy.

By the way, as a rhetorical tactic, your way really sucks. Think of the Springer Show, whenever you decide to post your opinions about some attitude, or prejudice, or stereotype that offends you. Try not to make that attitude look good, while making yourself look like a Springerite.

Tris

14

Just FYI, a fundie church in Denver has been inspired by Gibson’s movie to label Jews as Christ-killers. Is that ignorant enough for you?

15

You still don’t get it. There is no reasonable, commonly agreed-upon definitoin of “fundie”. If you want to Pit that particular Church, knock yourself out.

What parts of the Bibile is it OK to believe literally? If you don’t at least believe in the Divinity of Christ, then you are not a Christian. It’s all a matter of degree. You can’t seem to understand that.

16

Tris, save it. There are times when not to be outraged is to be wrong, and this is one of those times. I’m angry because you are defending people who see me and mine as vermin who do not deserve equal rights in this country.

And if you side with President Bush, James Dobson, and the rest of the fundie assholes who oppose my rights as a citizen, then you are part of the problem.

17

I think the comparison of fundies to racial groups is fundamentally flawed. Religious fundamentalism is chosen, skin color is not. A belief in the literal, inerrant truth of the Bible is a stupid belief. I respect the right to believe that. I would fight for anyone’s right to believe it but that doesn’t mean I have to respect the belief itself.

Having said that, I understand where Gobear is coming from, being that he is a victim of religious bigotry. Christian fundies have been at the forefront of anti-gay discrimination, legislation, relentless propaganda and now a proposed amendment which, if passed, would be the equivalent of smearing shit on the US Constitution.

But it isn’t only fundies who support this crap, unfortunately. Recent polls show that a disheartening majority of Americans are still complete idiots about what should really be a trivial issue.

I also happen to know that not a surprising number of people who we would classify as fundies are not anti-gay. They don’t get attention on tv and they don’t have much political power but they do exist. I may think that fundies hold to some ridiculous beliefs and that a large number of them hold downright poisonous beliefs, even beliefs which they see as a justification to deprive the rights of others.

However, I don’t think it’s quite fair or especially effective to create a group of “fundies” and define them all as being bigots. Religious belief is so individual, so amorphous and sometimes so self-contradictory that defining the bigots by their religion is not an efficient way to combat them. Not all fundies are anti-gay bigots, and certainly not all anti-gay bigots are fundies. I think it would be better to focus on specific, toxic beliefs and work on eradicating those than trying to eradicate something as intractable and, in many cases, as harmless as religious fundamentalism.

18

Kerry and Edwards oppose gay marriage. Are they fundie assholes?

Are all 84 Sentors who voted for DOMA fundie assholes? Is Clinton a fundie asshole for signing it? You are painting with too broad a brush.

19

I already defined it. Folks who believe in the literal truth of very word in the Bible, from Adam and Eve to Revelations, with emphasis on the Levitcal commandments against homosexuals, and who believe that their reading of the Bible should be made into law. This clearly does not apply to all Christians. I don’t care if people believe in Jesus, but I object to making their belief the legal basis to harass me and mine, as the president clearly intends to do.

I don’t have a problem with all Christians, just the extremists who want to eliminate gay people form the body politic. If you continue to assert that I’m attacking all Christians, then you are a lying sonofabitch.

20

Right. I tried being respectful and intelligent. That was a waste. So take a little of your own medicine, gobear, and see how it tastes.

Bull motherfucking shit, gobear, and don’t you for one bloody second even PRETEND otherwise. FUCK, dude … FUCK. How can you even THINK that goddamn tripe, let alone post it? What the FUCK are you ON?

EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PERSON’S RIGHTS ARE THREATENED. Get that through the block of concrete you call a brain or you are in for a long fucking life thinking you’re alllllll alone in this world, you against every other person.

I’m engaged to a woman, yes. Know what? Had I met the right man I’d be engaged to him. Then what would you say? Would my rights then be threatened according to the gobear Definition of Rights Abbrogation? My rights, as with ANY AND EVERY OTHER PERSON’S RIGHTS, are threatened. Most of us do not exercise them (or attempt to, in some cases), but they remain threatened just the same.

I talked, I remind you (I’ve posted about this before), in The South, in the same class where, on the first fucking day, I knew there were homophobes in my midst. I listened as a girl said she got in trouble for calling someone a faggot and used the word again just to piss people off. I listened to a well-meant but slightly inaccurate speech about how “it’s their choice to be gay” regarding allowing gay people in the military. I listened to my fiancee’s mother talk about how she didn’t want her grandkids exposed to Will and Grace, yet those same grandkids are exposed at least once a month to a preacher who rails against homosexuals (I got to listen to a summary of one sermon a week or three ago. My ears fucking BURNED), and at least one of them has watched The Sopranos, which is not known for its puritan values. All this where I live, where I go to school. My fucking backyard. I very nearly didn’t deliver that final speech because I was worried for my safety. I did anyway. I figure if I don’t have the safety to be myself then any other safety I have isn’t worth shit.

The same fundies, I remind you, who call you an abomination spare me no ill word whatsoever. They rail against my plausible marriage to a man (were I to find the right one) just as they rail against your possible marriage to a man. They also rail against Polycarp’s theoretical right (should A) polygamy become legal or B) Poly divorce) to marry a man, against Tiburon’s right to marry a woman, against Geobabe’s, etc. So don’t you EVER go telling me my rights aren’t threatened. Fuck, dude. In between ranting about fundies, try to get a breath in somewhere. Your brain could use the oxygen.