So, bigotry condones bigotry? Come on, gobear, you’re smarter than that.
I’m as ignorant of that as you are. I’m too busy dealing with my own life’s circumstances to presume that I have time to make informed judgments about someone else’s.
You should know the answer to that. If not, then you’re willfully ignorant.
I’m willfully ignorant if I don’t what beliefs you hold?
Were your beliefs explained to me, but I rejected them? They were self evident but I closed my eyes to them?
Or perhaps you mean that you have explained your particular beliefs in other threads? In that case, it would only be willfull ignorance if I had read those posts, and remembered them.
I gave you the standard answer not because I necessarily believe it, but because it’s, well, the standard answer. Even if one doesn’t accept it, it makes sense to use that as a starting point, and then go on from there.
But there is not a national social norm. I’m an atheist. Been so since I was about 14. And I’ve never felt any pressure to believe in God. Never. There may be some local or regional social norms, but even then it’s no way near universal.
The kind of complete religious fundamentalists that we’ve been talking about in this thread are a small minority in the US. They may be a vocal minority, and they may even be a majority in a few (very few) localities, but I think you’re overestimating their numbers.
The US is a church-going country, especially when compared to European countries. But don’t confuse that with rampant religious fundamentalism.
There may also be a difference in European countries because most have had a state religion at some time in their histories (correct me if I’m wrong about this). That’s the kind of social norm I was talking about in my earlier post. In the US, there are dozens of religions, so there has been no uniform control over that institution. No effort by the state to secularize it, if you will.
And I think the patriotism you see here has a more lot to do with the fact that virtually everyone here (or their ancestors at some point) **chose ** to come here on purpose. I don’t know if most Europeans can appreciate that. [The big exception there, of course, is the descendants of African slaves-- and that’s an issue the consequences of which we are still wrestling with.]
And again you are making no distinction between the oppressors and their victims. Bigtory is unreasoning prejudice; are you saying that defending gay people against the American Taliban is naught but bigotry? You can see no other reason that I would resent the backers of a Constitutional amendment that would officially declare me a second-class citizen? I’m just being a mean ole bigot against Dubya and his cronies?
Lib, stop playing word games and defending the indefensible. Rejecting science for the comforts of Bronze age mythology is ignorance or the word has no meaning. Believing in God is not ignorant because the existence of God is not a clearcut, testable issue, but rejecting science’s findings to embrace the contradictory, discredited belief that the Earth is only 6,000 years IS ignorant.
Dropzone, as has been pointed out, we’ve been here before. But even if we didn’t have the example of history before us, my comparisons would still be valid in kind, if not in degree. Gay people are being attacked by the government, which wants to enshrine the religious bigotry of its leadership into law. I don’t think I’m being the least bit “shrill” in pointing that out.
I understand why you would resent the backers of the proposed Constitutional amendment, but you are assuming that all fundamentalists are for of it. This has been proven wrong time and time again in this thread alone. If you wish to cotinue to make that assertion, then you are being willfully ignorant.
And to those religious conservatives who are for gay marriage, my apologies. The other 99% can go fuck themselves.
I love the disconnect here: in the same sentence you call fundamentalists “stupid and ignorant,” you also resort to a well-known racial epithet. Why not just call the Biblical authors “towelheads” while you’re at it?
Progress!!! 
MrVisible, i’m not much for going “great post,” but really – great post.
I personally think that things are moving forward in your country, and whatever I may think about the US political scene, I doubt that there’s a crash coming. I know damn well that you and others like you will work your asses off to prevent any such thing from taking place.
I want you to know, however, that if - if - the worst should happen, you have a place up here. I mean that seriously, and I think that is one thing that Canadian queers would be unanimous on.
We’ve done it before; we can do it again. Fear no evil.
Thank you. That’s all I was asking for.
Evil Captor, do not use racial slurs/hate speech on the SDMB.
Lynn
For the Straight Dope
This turned out to be an interesting thread. Especially interesting is that it was started because of a movie whose message, if it were seen and understood and adhered to, would negate the need for the thread in the first place. The message I took from The Passion of Christ most strongly was “Love one another.” No matter the sin or circumstance, human beings should love their friends and their enemies both, because to do otherwise brings only pain.
I understand where gobear is coming from too. I’m not a Christian, and I fully support the idea of homosexual marriage. I practically applauded when Rosie O’Donnell said that she got married to her female partner because she was “inspired” by Bush’s statement regarding a Constitutional ban on gay marriage. Talk about the law of unintended consequences! I bet Bush didn’t see that coming… 
And it frustrates me to no end when I hear anyone, Christian or otherwise, talk about how “wrong” homosexuality is, how gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry, and now the talk of a national ban on gay marriage. When I hear people talk like that, I know they are bigots. When Bush says that he will push for a Constitutional ban on gay marriage, it proves to me, once and for all, that he is an ignorant bigot.
But I can’t say the same for all “fundies,” however you want to define that term. For example, I knew a young man in college who could be described as a fundamentalist. He went on missions for his faith, and he believed strongly in much of what the Bible said. But he could have intelligent conversations about his beliefs, and I always enjoyed talking to him. I do not know what his stance on gay marriage was, but another man we both knew was openly gay, and they were friendly. He didn’t seem to have a problem with it, or if he did he didn’t show it. The point is, nobody could call him “ignorant,” despite the fact that he might be described as a “fundie.”
This is why I think gobear is going about things the wrong way. He is convinced that he is Right and anyone who doesn’t fit his definition is Wrong. He is convinced that he can freely insult anyone who fits the label “fundamentalist Christian” and be right in what he says. What he’s doing, however, through his negative statements, is turning people who might otherwise be at least willing to discuss the issues at hand with him against him by default. He’s not criticizing their opinions or arguments, he is insulting their deeply-held beliefs and their persons, and he’s doing it based on a broad generalization. It’s counter-productive.
Granted, there are many who would simply hold their hands over their ears and deny that gobear has any standing. But there are also many who would listen, and try to understand, if he were more reasonable and less automatically militant. As John Mace and Lord Ashtar have said, generalizations of any kind are usually wrong. Bigotry of any kind is always wrong.
I agree with much of you’re saying, gobear, and you won’t find anyone who’s a stronger supporter of gay marriage than me. I’m not your enemy. However, I do not agree with how you’re going about this. You’re not doing yourself, or the issues you raise, any good. I’d go as far as to say that you’re doing more harm than good. The key, to me, is to be better than those who are trying to hobble you. Don’t sink to their level.
“Love one another”… it’s such a simple message, such a simple philosophy. After the movie last night, I found myself wishing that more people, both Christians and otherwise, could follow it. And I am sad that more people cannot find it in their hearts to do so.
Did you read my posts. You do know I’m talking about the broad irrational, emotionally based function of religion (beyond the text of the Bible) in a particular society as compared to other societies, religion in all its degrees of fervour.
Right ?
As opposed to Canada, or Australia, or NZ ?
People are more patriotic because someone chose to go there 100 years ago ? I guess there’s an outside chance of a different kind of patriotism but . . . what was your point again - mine was that, in modern America, religion and patriotism can fuel one another.
From what I can see, there’s no substance to your point. This isn’t something you’ve thought about in any depth and you’re reacting for the sake of reacting.
For the record, I am religious, yet a liberal.
Which is good casue I really didn’t want to f*** myself.
No, and eliminating that law would have done nothing–NOTHING–to prevent the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler.
Laws are nearly useless as a gauge of current public opinion. Laws are created and eliminated long after the the trigger for the law has come or gone like a dog’s tail begins to wag seconds after the dog sees his master. This one will not pass and it will be followed by fewer and fewer such attempts to legislate against you. And the very best way to guarantee that it will fail is by you and other gay people being yourselves in public, though Tuscon might not be the best place for it. :eek:
However, I am a naive midwesterner who was raised, like most of us around here, to want to know as little as possible about my neighbors’ private lives. We invented “I won’t ask and, dear God, please don’t tell me” (And that’s not just about your sex life. I don’t want to know about anybody else’s sex life. Or their health problems.) so I’m probably a poor judge of the risks you take every day. If you are feeling unsafe where you live all I can do is suggest you move around here someplace. The Upper Midwest may have a godawful climate but we have a job market. And laws against harassing gays that are enforced.
yes, it was wrong of me to use bad words to describe a group of people who, by all historical accounts including their own holy books, thought it was OK to attack other tribes, kill all the men, and take the women and children as your slaves. I really am deeply ashamed. To describe such people as anything less than saints and fonts of human enlightenment indicates a deep and abiding flaw in my nature.
People who follow teachings written by murderers and slavers as the absolute truth concerning the universe and human existence are no more or less ignorant than …
OK, the horseshit is getting too deep here. Have ta stop.
Evil Captor, perhaps you missed Lynn Bodoni’s warning to you, about your racial slurs/hate speech?
Get a clue, man.
Been quite a few white and black tribes who thought that that was okeydokey, too.
I did not repeat the term. I’ll obey the rules of the board and not use the term any more. But I’ve read enough about how people behaved in Old Testament times to not deeply respect them as thinkers. I am vaguely amazed that anyone does. I think the Bible is a remarkable achievement, considering who wrote it. But it’s still full of contradictions, meaningless babble, and other stuff which can reasonably be described as crap.