Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance?

The BBQ Pit
221

[QUOTE=yosemitebabe]

I don’t personally give a shit if someone believes in something that I don’t “get,” as long as they aren’t hurting me or anyone else. Whatever makes them happy. I might think that they’re wasting their time, but as long as they aren’t bugging me to believe it too, it’s not that big of a deal. I don’t think I go around talking about how deluded and irrational they are, either. 'Cause I don’t give that much of a shit. If they seem to be otherwise reasonably intelligent folk, I figure that their “crackpot” belief is just an interesting quirk, and nothing more. :shrug:

[quote]

And then the crackpots started to become a political organization, and used their tax-free status and widespread network to dominate a whole religion. Then they started using their political clout to try to oppress segments of the population, and preached discrimination from the pulpits.

I used to treat religion like I treat belief in Santa Claus. It was harmless, so I left it alone. But now religion is being used to beat the crap out of people I love; religion is the sole justification for the crusade to single us out and deprive us of any chance at equlity under the law. The gloves are off.

Religious beliefs are astoundingly ridiculous. They don’t hold up to even the most cursory scrutiny; even going only by their own rules, the contradictions and inaccuracies are staggering. Believing in religion means substituting faith for reason in an area of your life. And the faith doesn’t just extend to the Bible, it extends to believing in interpretations of the Bible that come from officials in your church hierarchy that allow you to be manipulated to support political positions that the religious organizations can benefit from politically.

Asking people to respect your beliefs no matter how absurd isn’t actually that presumptuous. I’m happy to do so most of the time. Asking people to respect your beliefs no matter how absurd when those beliefs are the foundation upon which a massive campaign against millions of people is being constructed is like wading into a barfight while begging people to be careful of your knee, because you just had surgery and it’s not too sturdy yet.

I look forward to the day that I can ignore religion again. I really do. But for now, I can’t afford to do so. If you want people to start pretending that your beliefs are worthy of respect again, you’re going to have to stop using it to attack others.

222

If Yosemite Babe and friends think that I am merely hallucinating this threat to freedom from the fundies, I suggest that they open today’s Washington Post, A section, p. 19, which features a full page ad supporting the Federal Marriage Amendment, signed by 85 representatives of relgious hate groups, including Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalition, the Traditional Values Coalition, and Exodus International, just to name a few of the usual suspects.

Go ahead, tell me I’m just imagining that the religious conservatives are not allying their forces to get his thing passed and ratified. By all means, tell me that I’m being a bigot because I see that these people are being motivated by the power of religion-spawned hate.

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Dammit, gobear, didn’t we just go over this? You’re not mad at the fundies, you’re mad at the Religious Right. There is a difference.

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You keep saying there is a difference, but you have not actually provided any details.

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I have. How many times in this thread alone have we had examples of people who are fundamentalists but are not against gay marriage? How many examples do you need?

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Speaking for myself alone, I’d say enough to counterbalance the damage that your religion is doing to me and the people I love.

That’d do it.

227

Oh, please. On this board, the argument has been seriously advanced that one couldn’t call all Nazis anti-Semitic, due to the example of the good Nazi officer in The Pianist. One can always find an exception in any group–no doubt there might be a non-racist Klansman or perhaps an Al Qaeda member who is really quite fond of Americans. That one or two adherents to the fundie creed do not fully sign on to all its tenets does not in any way diminish that creed’s basic vileness.

228

I’m not convinced any of you are Fundies, truth be told. Christian, yes. Somewhat conservative Christain, perhaps.

You have not displayed beliefs that are consistant with contemporary protestant fundementalism. I know it when I see it, as I grew up it, and my parents are currently still there.

Pretty certain gobear is referring to these, and until you show evidence otherwise, you are just a wanna-be that thinks his precious little invisible fairy is under attack, and adopting the facade of “fundementalist” as camoflauge so you have a reason to attack. (or no doubt “defense” is how you see it)

If you are for Gay marriage, you cannot be a fundementalist, just confused. It is all or not at all I am afraid. You can believe in a “partial absolute translation” of the bible, but fundies believe in an Absolute translation, partial isn’t in their vocabulary. So if these are your beliefs, then you are not a fundie.

Fundie = Jack Chick

Not you.

229

What? Are you people smoking dope or what?

Look, I made it clear last time what I meant.

I meant the oozing smug superiority against anyone with a faith. I wasn’t talking about those who felt ire against those who were oppressing them. That ire is justified. And I already stated that. Can you people not read?

Do you all really think it is beyond comprehension that there are people who feel an oozing smug superiority against anyone who has a religious belief? Is this what you’re trying to say? That such people don’t exist? Or, if such people do exist, that I have no call to find them (at the very least) “ironic”?

Do you really not see the difference between, “I don’t get why they believe that and I think it’s kinda crackpot and I can’t really respect that crackpot belief, but whatever, dude,” and an attitude that is (once again) oozing smugness and superiority, because those “crackpots” (i.e. anyone with a faith) are so stupid and irrational and how could they be so deluded? You don’t see the difference there?

Well, if you don’t, I do.

You’ve never noticed the non-religious doing that towards anyone with a faith? Fine. I won’t try to convince you. All I’m saying is that it’s been demonstrated to me time and again, and even on this thread.

Oh well. I expect that you’ll continue to refuse to get the point. Whatever, dude.

Gobear, I’m not claiming that some of the fundies aren’t trying to do what they are trying to do. Fight the good fight, man.

I’m just saying that those who ooze smugness towards all of us who dare to believe in a diety are being noticed. We aren’t blind. And even those of us religious folk who fully support all gay rights can still notice when people are looking down their noses at us. :shrug: That’s all.

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OK, convince me. You say that all theists have been denigrated in this thread–give us an example.

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If you are that uncertain of what fundementalism is, read here:

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I do that yosemitebabe, I admit. I am merely human living in a culture that is predominately religious and frowns upon those that feel that reason and technology will be humanities savior, not one or more of the hundreds, if not thousands of religious myths. The smugness and arrogance no doubt stems from some defense mechanism or deeply rooted ego problems. That does not dismiss them, I admit, however it is often times necessary for a person to believe they are right against overwhelming odds, and arrogance is a nice armor, and sometimes is a nice tool.
I do appologize for some the generalizations that may hurt non-fundies, but sometimes I get carried away in my anger against the crap I have to put up with from my parents and their associates. (I am a closet athiest, as they do not know, they only know I am a heathen that doesn’t attend church, they would probably lynch me if they knew truth)

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“Enough to counterbalance the damage” that Christianity has done to you? So what would be enough? Can you be any more vague? Or are you basically saying that there is no way they can ever make it up to you and you will hate them until the day you die?

The Nazi example is a strawman. Anyone who makes an argument like that based on a character in a movie, even if it is based on actual events, is not to be taken seriously. A nonracist KKK member is in and of itself an oxymoron. And I would love to meet a member of Al Queda who doesn’t think that Americans are spawns of the Great Satan.

Like I’ve said, there have been many examples here in this thread alone, but I will give you another.

My brother calls himself a fundamentalist. He believes the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old, and that the Bible is the literal word of God. He thinks evolution is bunk and the work of people who are “deceived.” He and I have gone over these things more times than I can count.

He thinks homosexuality is a sin. However, he also firmly believes in the separation of church and state. He believes that the government has no business involving itself in marriage at all. In fact, he would prefer (as I do) that there was no such thing as being married in the eyes of the government at all, and thus is 100% against the proposed Constitutional amendment and any law which would prevent you from marrying your boyfriend.

How exactly is he deserving of your ire?

Obviously, you’ve been through a lot of shit in your life based on something over which you have no control. In fact, I would compare you to a white guy who grew up in a black neighborhood and was constantly picked on and beat up because he was white. He would most likely think poorly of all blacks, just as you think poorly of all fundamentalists. He would likely refer to them all as niggers, just as you refer to them as fundies.

All you are doing is sinking to their level. If that isn’t pure, willful ignorance, then I don’t know what is.

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Epimetheus, I didn’t notice your reply until after I wrote mine. I hope my example will be sufficent that it is possible to be a fundamentalist and still be okay with gays getting married.

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Well, that certainly is an interesting position. Not mine, of course, but an interesting position nonetheless.

If you want me to start treating christianity with respect, then its members have to reclaim its status as a respectable religion, and not some jingoistic political tool. I need to see the christian antithesis to Focus On The Family, organized, well-funded, and politically active, agitating for my rights as a citizen. I need to see full-page ads in major newspapers decrying the constitutional amendment as being unrepresentative of christian ideals. I need to see congregations walk out of churches in protest of bigotry, to try and force their denominations to change.

Until then, you’re not just part of the problem. You are the problem.

Oh, and if this seems like too much trouble for you, your brethren who hate us do as much, and more, in the name of your religion. Don’t you think it behooves you to do the same for your beliefs? Or are you ready to see your religion hijacked by politically-motivated bigotry? It doesn’t seem like it’s too much trouble for them.

Absolute, total bullshit, as has been pointed out many times in this thread alone. When you see a gay-sponsored amendment banning christians from having as many rights as non-christians endorsed by the gay president of the US, then we’ll have sunk to their level. It’d take a hell of a lot of ballast to get there.

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Okay, Gobear, I guess it’ll have to be a judgment call on whether or not the following is ooziing smug superiority, but do you really think such statements are only directed towards fundamentals who are trying to oppress you?

Why indeed, do all of us Americans choose the path of irrational, willful ignorance? Anyone believing in a God, or a diety, no matter how non-fundamental they are, no matter how liberal they are, is irrational and ignorant. Willful ignorance. I see no place here where London Calling is referring only to the fundies.

Why aren’t all of us who have religion as educated and enlightened as those in other countries who have no religion? Why indeed? What a puzzle it must be to some of you—wondering why we are all so deluded and irrational. Yeah, it gives me the warm fuzzies inside, knowing that you are wondering why we are so willfully ignorant over here in America.

I see that Epimetheus has also admitted to his own “smug superiority” as well (thanks for the clarification, Epimetheus, and your apologies are accepted).

I guess I should put it in a nutshell and repeat what Tris and Lord Ashtar have been saying: this isn’t about religion, this is about hate. If people of any stripe, no matter how crackpt they are, don’t hate you and don’t want to hurt you, why do you have such a contemptuous, condescending attitude towards them? And clearly, some of you do have a marked condescending feeling towards anyone who believes in that “archaic God.” Some of you don’t make that distinction between those who are “out to get you,” and those who are simply happy believing in stuff that you personally think is hogwash. You can view someone else’s belief as hogwash without being so smug about it, after all.

I’ve seen this attitude more than a few times, but the there was a thread about a year ago (sorry, I don’t intend to search for it) that stood out in my mind. It didn’t have much to do with oppression—it was about the irrational beliefs of some religious people. I tell you, that was an eye-opener for me as well. Some people that I thought were pretty cool and pretty laid back got downright disdainful and nasty about someone else’s harmless, “crackpot” beliefs. I was more than a little astonished. I had always thought that some of these people were more, well, gracious than that. But I was wrong.

I know that you are gracious about it, gobear. You are consistent in that one thing, and I do appreciate it. You don’t give a damn about others’ loopy (or I should say, “so-called loopy”) beliefs, as long as they aren’t raining on your parade. You won’t rain on their parade as long as they don’t rain on yours. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What I can’t figure out is why more can’t emulate you in this.

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?

The reason why people (Bible believing Christians) are so upset about this is because of two major reasons. The Bible condemns it; condoning it is basically slapping God in the face.

Also, if Christians believe the Bible to be true, they want to raise their children the way the Bible says to. If they support something that is condemned by God, that is telling them the Bible doesn’t really matter.

They want to protect their children from anything that will mislead them and possibly condemn them.

Whatever my child believes when she is older is her choice. But the Bible says that if we raise a child up right, they shall not part from those ways; this is what Christians are trying to do.

Anyway, I am a Bible believing Christian, as most already know, and as much as some would like to believe, I do not hate gay people and I do not wish death or pain on them.

I know that my supporting this amendment is difficult for many to understand, but this is a very big issue within Christianity, that has great consequences if not corrected.

I do wish that I did not have to explain this to my daughter at such a young age, but I do, and the media is not making it easy.

This is a very difficult subject for me/us.

So far, I have made up stuff, like, “they are sisters” or something. This is not good. My job as a parent is difficult, but as a Christian, it makes it that much more difficult.

I know many of you cannot understand, and I am sorry. I feel the same way as you do, just at the opposite end of the spectrum.

I know that I will be flamed for this, and that is ok. There are two sides, and not everyone will understand everything.

I do not think the amendment will pass anyway, so you are probably getting upset for nothing, Gobear. We should realize that not everyone will agree on everything, and people will always stand up for what they believe.

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I realize your daughter is younger than my son(soon to be 11) but I decided never to lie to him (no offence).
Its so much on tv, that I finally decided to tell him “some 2 guys want to marry”.
He got this weird surprised look on his face and said “thats weird.”
I told him some christians think its a sin.
He didn’;t think it snecessarily was, since he doesn’t know about sex and doesn’t realize sex is part of marriage, just driving togehter or whatnot.
There are gentle ways to explain.

That said, everyone shoulds stand by their convictions.
We chrsitians are not ignorant. If gobear wants to think so, thats his problem.
I think anyone who looks at the earth and humans and not realize God made this is ignorant.
We all have different opinions, for sure.

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GoBear your rights aren’t being threatened so much as you’re a deviation in a system that is set up to instill heterosexuality.

And I guess you’re just not charismatic enough to win friends and followers as an extremist. Try some moderation and smile a bit.

But I wholly agree that Fundies are ignorance of basic human rights as I see them.

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Needed some final touches.

But I wholly agree that Fundies are IGNORANT of basic human rights as I see them. Jack Chick is a fun fundie, though. Like those tracts with sodomy.