Why does anyone defend you if we are at war with ignorance.
Just because you are a stuck-up, arrogant-as-hell, gay, american piece of shit idiot, doesnt mean no-one’s going to defend you, right? But those admins still do… why?
Dont call others ignorant, when you yourself are more so…
It doesn’t say it’s a sin, it says it’s an abomination to God, and that he/she will not inherit the kingson of God. Depending if you look at the OT or NT.
Did I read you right? Do you agree that there is no bible verse that says homosexuality is a sin?
Kingdom — the only reason I correct myself, is because I know I will get criticized when I make a spelling error. Sorry for so many errors and reposts. Yes, I probably should preview first.
I submitted before I realized I did not respond to it.
I’m somewhat confused.
An abomination to God is not a sin?
A few verses later, it says a man who has sex with his wife while she’s menstruating shall be cast out from the community. That’s one sin I don’t even hear mentioned. Gossip, malice, slander, greed, and many other things are condemned explicitly and in plain language by Paul and Christ, and yet they are pervasive. Homosexuality never harmed me. Gossip, malice, and slander nearly killed me. Indeed, one reason I survived is a man who I learned was homosexual year later stood by me. Homosexuality an abomination? No! Deliberately and systematically destroying the psyches of two young women (the other was my best friend) to the point where one has a nervous breakdown and the other is convinced she is likable and unlovable, some less-than-human creature, that is abomination. As I stood before and defended my best friend, so I stand before my homosexual brothers and sisters. If you want to call someone an “abomination” and a “sinner”, you start with me. Remember, I come by my handle honestly.
Gobear, what do you want me to do? Without my Christian faith, I would have died, last winter, if not earlier. Atheism, combined with a logical bent of mind and lingering self-esteem issues won’t work for me. It’s all too easy to come to the conclusion that there is no logical reason for me to continue consuming resources and suffering pain. Several months ago, I joined a church which is leading the fight against my bishop’s anti-gay stance. I have also cut my ties with the local Diocesan Commission on Racism, which the bishop established because it seems to me to be hypocritical to oppose homosexual marriage while fighting racism.
I have no love for so-called “Fundies”. If their model of Christianity was the one I 'd grown up with, I’d be an atheist or a Wiccan, and I will continue to tell them so when and if the occaision arises. I’m tired of false dichotomies like two current Great Debates which seem to imply that being a Christian means I cannot accept evolution, and accepting the possibility of life on Mars implies I can’t be a Christian. I’m a fan of science fiction. The possibility of life being found on Mars, even if it’s been years since it lived, is exciting, not faith-shattering!
I spent my teenage years outside the establishment railing against it. Not only did it not work; it nearly got me killed. 
It did, however, give me the empathy and the tools I need to fight this battle from within my Christian faith, including the ability not to be rattled by the possibility that I might be cast out or called any number of foul things, including “un-Christian” and “in league with the Anti-Christ.” I’ve been called worse. :rolleyes:
I hope that if a straight, celibate, Christian who’s relationship with Christ is so personal He’s been known to interfere in my love life ( :eek:!) can stand up and be counted in favor of homosexual rights, I can make a difference. I may not be able to, or it may not be worse, but I’ve always had a bit of Don Quixote and Cyrano de Bergerac in me, and this windmill is worth tilting at. I hope I’m harder to write off.
I hope this hasn’t gone too far afield.
Siege
Well, a lot of people will not inherit the kingdom of God — chief among them being those who place the law above mercy. “You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” — Jesus
By the way, since Jesus said that “anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28) one could argue that Jesus, Himself condemned heterosexuality, and more explicitly so than homosexuality. To me, being hetero- or homosexual is no more inherently sinful than being tall or short, or blonde or brunette. What one does with one’s homosexuality, tallness, blondeness, etc. is what does or does not consitute sin. If I use my shortness to crawl through ductwork a la too many private eye shows and steal something, that’s sinful. If I use it to sit under a desk and hook up someone’s computer, that’s probably not. If I use it to sit under someone’s desk and give him a blow job, unless I’m married to him, that’s sinful. That’s also, I admit, oversimplifying. I have a talent with words. When I use them to build someone up and support them, then, I’m pretty sure, I’m doing God’s will. When I use them to tear down a person and destroy them, which I have done, to my shame, I am committing a sin, and, by my standards, a far more grievous one than most things two people can think of to do in their bedroom.
CJ
I haven’t participated in this thread and I haven’t read all of it, but I think that’s a damned good question Eve.
I’m not one for believing in sin per say, but let me put on my God spectacles for a second:
I think I actually would consider it a sin; primarily because it’s a behavior (Not trying to step on any toes, I just can’t think of a better word) of the flesh and “love”/“sex”/“attraction” is only holy under marriage IIRC-therefore any sort of sexuality outside of marriage would be a sin.
I’ll have to think a little more about this though, before I come to any firm conclusions…
Yeah, and so’s eating shellfish–“Repent, thou devourers of oysters Rockefeller!” But let’s say that you believe in the divine authority of the community taboos of a pack of Bronze Age nomads–what right do you have to impose your beliefs on the community at large? What right do you have to make other people follow the rules of your religion? Conversely the legalization of gay marriage imposes nothing on you–you are not required to be gay, your church’s rules against gay people will remain in force, and you are free to think me an abomination to your heart’s content.
Well, first of all, I want you to love yourself and realize that your “logic” comes not from reason but from pain. There are many, many reasons for you to live and prosper and be happy.
Second, be who you are, a loving Christian who emphasizes God’s love and compassion for the suffering of humanity. Your caring helps to outweigh the Pharasaical harshness of the fundie legalists like JerseyDiamond.
All anyone can ask is that you don’t project your beliefs on me and do not judge people based on genetics. Isn’t the definition of a bigot someone who prejudges another person based on an inherited characteristic.
Tris you may not hate homosexuals but saying homosexuality is a sin is easilly interpreted that way.
No I’m straight and I can’t imagine anyone ever called me a homophobe. If you want to say that homosexual sex outside of marriage is a sin in your opinion you will get very little arguement from me as that is behavior. (all the more reason to support gay marriage 
)I disagree as I’m atheist and don’t believe in sin at all but that is a matter for another thread.
In short Homosexual sex is behavior. Homosexuality is genetic.
lissener: I do not understand where you’re coming from. You seem to be ascribing beliefs to me I do not hold.
I repeat: I don’t know if homosexuality is a sin. Maybe it is; maybe it isn’t. If I’ve ever said definitively that it is, please point that out to me.
My position is that, even if homosexuality is a sin, it’s no worse than any other sin I (or anyone else) could commit and have committed. And therefore, there is no need for a constitutional amendment that basically relegates those who engage in homosexual behavior to second-class citizen status.
I have no earthly idea where you got this. Please show me where I said anything that would cause you to address this to me.
I’ve pondered a bit more on Eve’s question (Could heterosexuality be a sin?), and I’ve come to this conclusion: God gave us sexuality as part of the overall package. I believe that the ideal method for using that sexuality is within the bounds of a committed, loving relationship. I’ve been raised to believe that premarital sex is wrong, but I’ve engaged in it myself and found it to be quite enjoyable. I think that sexuality, just like anything else, can be used inappropriately and cause a person to separate themselves from God.
In examining that conclusion, I find nothing that says sexuality must be used/enjoyed strictly by heterosexual couples. Ergo, homosexual sex isn’t wrong, as long as it doesn’t separate the participants from God. And, by extension, a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriages would actually be against God’s will, because He would want to encourage His children to be in loving, committed relationships to enjoy the gift of sexuality.
Make sense?
I am most certainly willing to say that. ANYthing that comes between my relationship with God is a sin in my life.
If I’m putting material gain above my relationship with God, it’s sinful. If I’m putting sex (in any form) before my relationship with God, it’s sinful.
My job, my kids, my husband, my desires…all have to come second.
Do I do this all the time? Absolutely not. I’m selfish and I put what I want first a lot of times. Doesn’t make it any less sinful because I’m straight instead of gay.
Can you kindly explain what this means? I’m honestly at a loss for words. What are you supposed to be doing instead of making dinner and giving the kids a bath? I really want to know what sort of stuff…specific stuff…comes between you and god.
I was using an extreme example. Anything that I place before my relationship to God can be construed as being sinful.
Of course I should make dinner and give the kids a bath…my children are entrusted to me by God and I am expected to care for them.
What I mean is that if I am placing greater emphasis on other things in my life before my relationship with God that is sinful.
My priorities should be:
God
Husband
Kids
Job
Woohoo! I’m Number 2! Take that, Christian Kane!
(Sauron does the Happy Dance)
What do you mean by “emphasis”? You or your husband HAVE to put the job first or you can’t take care of your kids and each other. What are you actually “doing” when you’re putting the primary emphasis on god?
I’ll try to answer this, until my lovely wife can come back to the thread.
As a Christian, my belief is that I should always keep the examples and teachings Jesus provided for us in the forefront of my mind when going about my daily routine. That, essentially, is what I mean when I say “placing God first” or “preventing things from coming between me and God.” You’ve probably seen the “WWJD” (What Would Jesus Do) bracelets and such that some people wear. Same thing; that’s just a physical reminder.
I believe Jesus wants me to give my employer the best of my talents/abilities, while always remembering the reason that I work.
Putting a job – ANY job – as the first priority in my life leads to problems, in my opinion. If the job is the most important thing to me, I will do it to the exclusion of other things I could/should be doing for my family, or perhaps to the exclusion of my family itself. Bad situation there. That doesn’t mean I don’t work; it just means that I keep in mind that I work to support my family.
An example of this thought process: We’re attempting to finally get a handle on our debt, and pay off as much as we can. I have toyed with the idea of getting a second job, and using the income from that job to pay the debt off faster. Doing that would seriously impact the amount of time I have to spend with my family, though. I’m not willing to make that sacrifice. I would rather take longer to pay off the debts than take time away from my family, and I believe this is the path God would want me to take.
Other parents/spouses make the same decision without incorporating their belief regarding God’s view of this situation. That’s cool; whatever works for them. For me, I believe my best option in any situation is to try to consider what God would want me to do. If I do that, I’m keeping Him as the main priority in my life.
Does that make sense?
That you are still up in the air indicates that you are still thinking about it from the wrong paradigm. Please respond, if you have a minute, to my lefthanded parallel. In the middle ages (just making that up; don’t know when it was) lefthandedness was seen by some religious groups as sinful. Today we look at that idea with disdain, at best. I’m trying to make you understand that even to consider that homosexuality may be a sin is to exhibit a basic misunderstanding of what homosexuality is. Homosexuality is entirely separate from homosexual behavior. Homosexuality is the same kind of that as heterosexuality, or lefthandedness, or freckles, or unibrow. It is not behavior. It cannot be a sin. Cannot. Be. A. Sin.
Unless, of course, you’re willing to consider that lefthandedness is a sin.
A), My “you” was universal. B), if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
Yes. But to express this opinion, arrived at however logically, while still coming from the paradigm that posits the possibility that homosexuality–as distinct from homosexual behavior–is a sin, feels to me, at best, patronizing, and at worst, conniving at evil.