Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance?

The BBQ Pit
41

Fuck the arcana, gobear is pissed off because he’s a (normally) reasonable person who has people in his own government coming straight after him.

His ire may not be laser-focused against the tiny segment of the population which now apparently serves as the moral and legislative compass of the United States. But for shit’s sake, I’ll sure give the fellow some slack, considering that the country we share is spinning completely out of control.

When’s the last time America went straight after an entire sector of the population? If my memory serves, it was everyone of the Islamic persuasion. When the right signals come up, we can put one of those folks in a cell in Guantanimo Bay, without lawyers, trial, or appeal.

Now, for purely political reasons, people of gobear’s persuasion are potentially facing the same music. You think banning gay marriage and throwing suspected terrorists in jail without due process aren’t the same thing? Fuck you, you ignorant fools. We’re now openly talking about amending the goddamned Constitution to make sure this guy can’t enjoy the same freedoms some of you take for granted every day. Straight on the heels of revoking rights of people for purposes of national security, the debate is suddenly opened to permanently revoking the rights of otherwise law-abiding citizens for purposes of moral security.

If I’ve failed to compare the two examples coherently to your satisfaction, then all I have to say is “fuck you.”

I could try to salve gobear’s anxieties by explaining how this move is going to destroy the ultra-conservative movement, as I attempted to explain elsewhere on these boards. That doesn’t matter to him or to you or to any of us right now. What matters is this guy is facing potential persecution, and he has correctly, if perhaps broadly, identified the very people who intend to do it to him. Deny, parse, pare if you must, but some of us have seen exactly what these bastards are up to and warned you about it for a year now, and now that the day of reckoning is nigh you would fucking dare to attack the accused?

Well, of course you can attack him, because he is incoherent with rage. But I’m not going to forget this. I’m not going to let your children forget this. I’m not going to ever let this piece of politically-motivated hatred go unforgotten, ever, so long as I live. And just like the bible-wavers who preached in favor or Jim Crow are vilified and shunned today, so too the fundamentalists who backed this latest excursion into hatred and oppression will be seen tomorrow. The investment in hatred and conceit has always operated at a loss, even if it takes centuries to morally bankrupt its purveyors.

42

You know what? He’s right. In everybody’s rush to defend the poor, innocent Christian fundamentalists from gobear’s oh-so-deadly ire, his fundamental (ha!) point seems to be ignored. So someone should say it. Not all beliefs are equal. Some are just fucking stupid. If these are your beliefs, you’re ignorant.

43

Some of us just deserve it more then others. You’d have to have some pretty severe moral blinders to think we all deserve it equally. If I felt as though a group was out to stomp on me with both feet you can bet I’d be generally hostile towards them.

Marc

44

I’d agree with all of these statements. There are some other statements I’d like some clarification on, though.

Which of these hypothetical people are ignorant?

Bob: I believe that Jesus Christ died, was entombed, came back to life, and then ascended to Heaven.

Sue: I can one-up Bob. Jesus Christ is still alive! I talk to him every day!

Sally: Me too, me too. Not only that, but this one guy, Lazarus, was also brought back from the dead by Jesus.

Fred: Bob, Sally, and Sue are missing the point. Yes, Jesus is alive, and yes, I talk to him too. He’ll be back someday, too. I’m sure most of the book of Revelation is metaphorical and allegorical, but Jesus will walk on this planet again someday.

So, in addition to your list of “Points of Ignorance,” which of these beliefs can I add?

45

I would also assume that you’d find the belief (that a man was born of a virgin and was the Son of God, and walked on water and died and came back to life after three days) to be equally ignorant.

And also that this man made water into wine, raised people from the dead, fed a crowd with loaves and fishes—performed many miracles—these are also, I presume, ignorant beliefs, right?

How can a man walk on water? Or feed a crowd on just a few loaves and fishes? How can a man rise from the dead and be born of a virgin? Many Christians, not just fundies, believe this. They absolutely, 100% believe it. A whole lot of them believe it. Some may wonder about this detail or that detail in the Bible. Some may wonder if all the miracles were performed (but many do believe that they were performed). Many may interpret this scripture differently than someone else, but I’d guess that many believe that this man Jesus was the Son of God and he rose from the dead. Not sorta rose from the dead, not looked like he rose from the dead, but literally, rose from the DEAD.

Rising from the dead? That’s obviously ignorant, to believe that!

46

gobear needs and deserves support.

Generalisations are necessary for discourse. If one attempted to qualify everything one said till there was not a single exception unaccounted for, one would never say anything at all.

The fundie point of view is based on ignorance. That is its overriding characteristic. If you question and consider and require proof, you are not a fundie. The very essence of being a fundie involves a wilful blindness to reality, a deliberate decision to have absolute faith in a set of very dubious “facts” without question.

It is also by and large characterised by a belief especially in the US that your dubious set of facts should be imposed on everyone else

If you consider yourself to be a fundie, or associate with fundies but feel that it is not fair for gobear to lump you with the rabid fundie assholes that gobear is rightfully angry about, then maybe it’s time for you to think about your own position and do something about the obnoxious and despicable shit that is being carried out in your name, rather than get annoyed with gobear for pointing out the uncomfortable truth.

47

No, you can stop there. There is a fundamental difference and it’s to do with falsifiable hypotheses. We can test the age of the earth. It’s not 6000 years. We can test for the consequences of a world-wide flood. There wasn’t one. We cannot test whether or not there is a God and we cannot test whether or not He manifested Himself on earth.

As it happens, as it does not admit of a falisfiable test, I require the reverse – for it to be proved to me. And since this has not happened, I do not believe it. But this is a long, long way from saying that a belief in God and His incarnation on earth is ignorant.

Your analogy simply doesn’t work.

And that means that the rest of what you say, as eloquantly as you chose to present the argument, simply doesn’t matter. The incarnation of God can, of course, do as He wishes whilst on earth. I personally find it rather an incredible claim and think it much easier to suppose that even if Jesus existed, the miracles were a combination of wishful thinking, exaggeration and misunderstanding than fact. But to believe they did indeed happen as stated is in a different class to the statement that everything we understand about the world is wrong because God says so.

48

Gobear, I think your main problem is the assumption that education and intelligence is some sort of phrophelatic against assholishness and bigotry. This is a dangerous presumption liable to backstab you.

Some fundies are very much literate and intelligent, and calling them stupid and illerate not only pointlessly pisses them off (which, by the way, helps them mobilize their own bases of support to action), but is just plain false.

I’m glad you’re pissed off: you’re RIGHT to be pissed off about what’s going on in our country. But not all pissing offs are created equal.

49

And God can do as He wishes.

Which could mean (some will argue) making Adam and Eve and flooding the Earth and then covering up all evidence of it later.

Yeah, I’m sure you’ve heard that one before as well. Doesn’t sound logical, but neither does rising from the dead or being born of a virgin or walking on water.

Well, do we believe that people can rise from the dead? Is that something that we believe about the world today? Does this happen? With all the medical knowledge and understanding that we have, does anyone really believe that this is medically possible? Isn’t there enough medical evidence proving that this is not possible? (And once again, I’m not talking about someone looking dead but not really being dead, I’m talking about being totally, stone cold, completely dead for three days and yet coming back to life.)

Do we believe that people can walk on water with no magician’s tricks and no other external help? Do we believe that a human female can become pregnant without any help from a human male (especially back in those days) and give birth to a human baby?

Surely there is enough knowledge and testing done on the human reproductive system by now. Surely by now, we should know that it’s pretty much impossible for a woman to have a baby poof! just like that, with no intervention or contribution from another human being. Just, poof! Pregnant.

And yet that’s what most Christians believe happened with Jesus Christ.

How is that not ignorant?

50

Is fighting with ignorants fighting ignorance? Does it work? Your post in the GD thread wasn’t going to inform anyone. It certainly wasn’t going to persuade anyone that you have reason on your side. I can’t see that it was going to mobilize the apathetic to your side. I suspect it just made you feel better. I understand why you’re angry. The forces of darkness are on the fucking march. But I don’t think this sort of thing helps.

FWIW, I know some pretty smart illiterates. And I’m guessing Princhester knows some true Scotsmen.

51

See, the problem here is you are attacking people who aren’t your enemy. I think Bush is a horrible president, he’s doing his best to reshape the goddamn Constitution to suit his own fucked up agenda, and the rest of the world hates us because of him. And yet, if I take issue with gobear’s overly broad brush, that makes me an ignorant fundie lover? I’m a borderline atheist, and a Democrat. Stop and think a moment about what you are saying. You guys are pissed off, hey I am too. But your being pissed off at me, or anyone who dares disagree with you in the slighest degree, isn’t helping anyone.

52

But the former takes a much further leap of faith, since it actively contradicts everything that we know. That’s really going some.

People? No, we don’t. Gods, however, we’re not so sure about. That’s rather the key. We’re talking about one individual that is claimed to not be as the rest of us, in which case all bets are off. We’re not talking about flat contradiction with all available evidence.

People? No. Gods, again, I wouldn’t like to say.

Err… this one’s a bit trickier, actually. As I understand it, it is possible for this to happen. But nit-picketry aside, I refer the honorable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

pan

53

I could be wrong, but I’d be willing to bet that those wonderful fundies are not in the least bit politically inclined. If they are fundies, they believe the things Gobear says they believe. They may not be on a soapbox trying to write the laws, but it IS in their hearts.

54

A. What broad brush? Relgious fundamentalists" is a well-defined demographic.

B. Did I call you an ignorant fundie lover? Did I? Show me or stop putting words in my mouth.

Yes, I’m angry, and more than that, sorely disappointed that so many of you care more for wounded fundies than are concerned by the harm they cause. You say that Bush’s agenda is “fucked-up”–where do you think he gets his ideas? Who do you think are his core supporters? Who wants restrictions on bioengineering? Who wants federal money spent on faith-based enterprises? Who believes Bush has been divinely called to office?

But apart from the political argument is the question of credulity and the definition of ignorance? Is there anything so bent, so backward that Dopers will have the courage to say, “Yes, that is ignorant, that demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the world and its workings”?

Some religious beliefs, such as the age of the earth bein no more than 6,000 years old, are beyond debate. That has been so conclusively demonstrated that it is perverse to not give assent to its validity. Others, such as the miracles of Jesus, however, cannot be tested and thus are outside the bounds of skeptical evaluation. However, if Yosemite Babe wishes to assert the positive existence of Jesus as the incarnation of God, then she must also accept the existence of the gods of the Egyptian, Norse, Hindu, Greco-Roman, Aztec, Mayan, and Shinto pantheons, just for a start. She must believe that the world was churned from a pail of milk AND excreted by the gods AND carved from the bodies of giants AND was stirred from the depths of the ocean because all of those claims rest on as much as evidence as does hers.

55

Many of you guys are entirely missing the point. This is was raised during a CS thread. **Go back and read my first post in this thread. ** No one is denying that he can’t or shouldn’t argue with the beliefs of “fundies”. But he came in to a perfectly reasonable thread about a movie and attacked “fundies” on a very personal level, with absolutely no reference to their beliefs other than to use a derogatory term to identify them. Had he said the same thing about any other group, he’d have been admonished by the mods.

That’s the issue.

56

I believe the first 3 of these.
That makes me(in your idea) 3/5ths ignorant.
See? I can figure fractions!
:slight_smile:

57

I made a snarky comment about fundies probably having trouble with subtitltes. And I apologized for the hijack in that thread and in the OP of this one. Forgot to mention that, didn’t you? In any event, don’t come crying to me about the cruel stereotyping of fundies. They joined their cult willingly and signed onto its program of hate, so I have about as much pity for them as I do for the Taliban, the Inquisition, or any other group dedicated to the imposition of religious tyranny.

58

I thought the term “fundie” (which, I suppose, if you wanted to be less derogatory, should be “fundamentalist”) perfectly describes their beliefs. They believe that the stories in the bible actually happened, and that the words of the bible hold more authority than the law of the land. That’s what “fundie” means. An accurate description, I think.

59

As does one of the smartest guys I know. He’s bright, he’s amusing, he’s very good and a difficult job that takes great knowledge, understanding and perspicacity.

He’s still ignorant.

60

Yes. Yes we do. To believe otherwise is to believe that my parents had sex. That is something I’m not willing to consider.

gobear, this might not help at all, but you could consider taking a page out of the fundie’s handbook … literally.

When Jesus walked the earth, He was often tested, and was frequently mocked by the existing power structure. (On a religious level, anyway. The Romans didn’t care much about Him one way or the other.)

He could have struck back. He could have attacked His detractors. He could have become a travelling brawler, inciting fights wherever He went.

However, He didn’t take that course. He wanted to touch lives and change destinies. I’m sure He could have won many fistfights (He was a carpenter, after all, and so probably relatively strong, particularly compared to the average Pharisee) but that wouldn’t have accomplished His ultimate goal.

Short-term? He was crucified, and died. Long-term? He founded a religion that has existed for 2,000 years, despite the fact that early Christians were persecuted by the existing governmental and religious authorities of the time.

I guess my question is: Is it important for gay people to have the rights you want, or is it important for you to have the rights you want? It’s possible that our society will decide 30 years from now to acknowledge the rights you’re fighting for now. Sometimes taking a long-term view of the situation can help defuse some of the anger one naturally feels when looking at the short-term fight.