This is something that I have been wondering about for a very long time. Perhaps you or someone can clear this up for me. Why is it that groups outside of the mainstream seem to be held to such a higher standard of behavior?
Case in point: Christian Fundamentalists. Like it or not, when you look at the movement to codify repression of homosexuals in to law this group owns that movement. When your average person on the street encounters Fundamentalism, this is what he sees them doing. It is well and good to state that there are exceptions to this, but the fact remains that if you are a Fundamentalist this is what is being done in your name and the public face of your subset of Christianity. At the end of the day, it is your problem to fix societies perception of Fundamentalism.
Then we come to the gay man. His very existence is being actively threatened by groups self-identifying as Christian Fundamentalists. You might say, given that they are denying that his love is as good as theirs, stating that he is an abomination and so forth, that he is being attacked by this group on a very personal level. Yet, somehow, he is supposed to make all of these nuanced distinctions within the subset of the group that is attacking him? Why?
As a final thought; please, please, please I beg of folks that they not trot out the old “he should be calm and reasonable because he will never convince people of his position otherwise” saw. This has been done to death, and honestly there is enough information out there and there are enough people that still have the patience to do this that if someone remains unconvinced, or needs every single homosexual on the planet to nurture him along until he is not a bigot then the only conclusion that I can reach is that we are firmly in the realm of lazy willful ignorance. We are really kind of reaching the end of the time when reasonable discourse on this subject. Sometimes, if it is foaming at the mouth you just have to shoot it.
I generally try to stay out of political/religious arguments (as opposed to political/religious discussions), but I had to pop in to say that Gobear is quite coherent with rage. And, as someone who is also considered a freak of nature by the more right-wing and fundamentalist sects (of most religions), I am behind him 100% (I’m behind him because if I were in front of him I’d get hit by rocks).
Jesus may have done it through tolerance and love, but many of his most influential followers have done it through intolerance, hate, defamation, and violence.
What constitutional ammendment? The one being discussed, that has yet to be introduced to congress, ratified by either house or any state? That one? Yes, fundamentalist Christians hold political clout. But, they don’t control our entire government, or even the Republican party (there are plenty of Republicans who aren’t pleased with an ammendment…)
There is no more an all-encompassing Christian “organization” then there is an all-encompassing Gay organization. A liberal Christian church, that holds views palatable to you and contributes to the community, has nothing to prove.
Eve there are many many many straight people like myself who would gladly stand with all of the people being targeted by these fundy muppets. I’m convinced(hope) there’s more of us than them we just need to stand up and be counted and not meekly accept this shite.
I live in a country that also needs to look at it’s laws regarding Gay marriage and the rights of transgendered people. Hopefully if we don’t do it Europe does it for us.
Small addendum here, but didn’t Jesus also violently drive the moneylenders from the temple? There is a time for love and a time to fight back. Unless I am mistaken, it seems as though Christ himself showed this through his actions.
I must have missed the part of the Bible that read: “And the Lord sayeth: Go forth, and do no more than you absolutely have to. Keep to yourselves, ignore the evil perpetrated in your name; if it doesn’t concern you, don’t worry about it. The persecuted can fend for themselves.”
And you must have missed the part in my reply, which you quoted, that said “A liberal Christian church, that holds views palatable to you and contributes to the community, has nothing to prove.” (bolding added) Churches, even conservative ones, often contribute a lot towards charity.
By persisting to characterize a large group by the actions of a small subset of that group and by willfully ignoring the positive contributions of the rest of the group, you show yourself to be as bigoted as those whom you condemn.
Oh, your church gives money to fight intolerance against gays? You guys buy tickets to the Human Rights Campaign’s Annual Dinner in DC? Regular contributors to GLAAD, are you?
Or do you just, like, toss a few bucks to the United Way and call it a day? Do you contribute anything that helps gay people? If not, then who cares what you give because it’s irrelevant to this issue!
Sure. Isn’t that nice. Where is the pro-gay christian equivalent of Focus on the Family, though? There are dozens of these fundie organizations out there, funded by churches, trying hard to make sure that the man I love and I are perpetually second-class citizens. Where’s the christian opposition to injustice perpetuated in the name of christianity?
You can slap that label on me as soon as I try and get a constitutional amendment making christians second-class citizens.
MrVisible: Actually, all Christians believe that Jesus told us to go out and tell the world about Him. He specifically told us not to “keep to ourselves.” But we get lambasted for doing that, because then people say that “fundies” are trying to shove Jesus down their throats. So we can’t win either way, you know?
It’s entirely possible there are multiple ways of fighting to give gay members of society the same rights and priveleges as other members of society. Just because a Christian, or a church, is not marching in the street and generating sound bites on the news doesn’t mean we’re not working toward the same goal you are. In that instance, your antagonistic attitude toward all Christians does more harm than good for your cause; you run the risk of alienating those who would (and do) support you.
gobear: Using your logic, I would ask why I should be concerned about gay rights at all. I’m not gay. To my knowledge, a gay person has never helped me. So why should I attempt to help you in your cause?
My answer, of course, is that it’s the right thing to do, in my opinion and belief. I don’t do it because a gay person gave me money. (Although I will cheerfully accept money from any gay people who want to send it to me. Or straight people, for that matter.)
Well, you never hear anyone preaching on the streetcorner about how Jesus said to love thy neighbor as thyself, and that includes everyone. Instead, we hear about how we’re all going to hell for various reasons. Which goes to my point: hatred is the most visible part of your religion right now.
Why aren’t there christian groups out there on the front lines fighting for gay equality? Maybe if the less-bigoted among you had the kind of evangelical dedication that the bigots do, people wouldn’t mind your preaching quite so much.
Okay, how? How are you going to counterbalance the damage done by the religious right and their anti-gay lobbying? How are you going to make up for the fact that the money behind this movement comes from christian collection plates?
The best support most of those people could give us would be to walk out of their churches in disgust, taking their money and their tacit support of bigotry with them.
Not quite getting your meaning Sauron. My comments to Metacom were meant to point out that giving to unspecified charities does not give his church a pass to turn a blind eye to evil being done in Jesus’s name.
I don’t currently have a church. I’ve visited a couple, and have found one I’ll probably stick around to investigate more closely–I may join. One of the things thats struck me about the churches I’ve visited is that they do give a lot to the community. They do give money to liberal social justice causes. Both have been supporting local AIDS-related charities since the days when AIDS was almost universally viewed as a gay disease. The Rector of one had been involved with gay causes for quite a long time. There were same sex couples attending each. “Christian” and “Fundie” are NOT synonyms.
How about any one of the Christian churches that accept homosexuality?
It’s marrying gay couples in Christian churches and providing a spiritual home to them and other gays. It’s voting against candidates that run on hate. It’s working with local charities to make the world a better place. Liberal Christians can’t stop fundamentalists from doing what they want under whatever banner they choose, but they can provide a counter-example that demonstrates acceptance and love.
That’s a non sequitor: you can be a bigot even if you don’t try and amend the constitution.
Lovely. Make more noise. A counter-example that nobody sees isn’t much of an example, unless you’re trying to teach passivity. The bigots in your religion are organized, well-funded, and they’re outshouting you by a factor of ten. They are, as I’ve said, the public face of christianity. Don’t let them be.
Ah, but not “as much of a bigot” which is what you originally claimed I was.
Guess who didn’t read the OP or many of my posts. I know that and I explicitly said that I am not going after all Christians. What I failt to get is that even after I have clearly, repeatedly said that it it the extreme fundies I’m going after, you and every other dimwit says that I’m attacking all Christians.
I’m not, and if you continue to say otherwise you are a liar.
OK. MrVisible, you’re now the leader of a large, liberal gay-affirming Christian congregation. Your budget is spread between paying for the upkeep of the church, the staff, the national organization your church belongs to, and various charitable ministries. You’re probably not going to get a bunch of buttoned-down parishioners to go lay down in the streets in support of gay rights (note that the other side can’t motivate people that much either). What do you do to make Gobear have warm fuzzies towards Christianity, without violating your deeply held belief in the seperation of church and state or spending money you don’t have?
Every single post I’ve made in this thread (and your replies to them) have descended from a reply I made to MrVisible in which I disagreed with him lumping all Christians in the same category (which was most certainly not an attack on just the extreme fundies). I’m sorry if I got confused and misportrayed your views.
