OK, I hereby target fundamentalist Muslims who want to deny gays their equal rights.
Carry on.
You totally missed the point, but whatever.
My mother-in-law is what can be described on these boards as a “fundie,” she thinks evolution is bunk, and takes many parts of the Bible literally. So, yeah, she’s ignorant in many ways, and refuses to see any alternative to what she was taught.
That said, she has no heart to support the persecution of gays, since she has a friend whose son is gay, with a long term partner (I hope they can be legally wed, in spite of the bigots’ efforts!). She always speaks highly of this man and his partner, and I detect no insincerity in her love for them. Nor do I see any concern for the fact of their homosexuality besides a kind of: “Well, that’s different, but it takes all kinds,” variety of wonder. And acceptance. If she condemns them, I’d know, since she’s not very good at guarding her thoughts in conversation on any topic. Any petty problems I may have with her are wiped out by my observation that she is a genuinely good person.
Also, there is a local restaurant in the Seattle suburb in which she lives. It is run by a lesbian couple who don’t make their nature a secret. She has no problem with this. She supports this restaurant with her patronage, even buying special Valentine’s Day dinners (seven courses, very good) dinners for her kids and their spouses. It was very nummy, by the way. She accepts the fact that some people are gay, and that’s that.
Politically, she tends to be rather liberal, because she (like my wife and I), strongly believe in the “Liberty and Justice for All” bit of the Pledge that was derived from the Constitution. I think it’s because she sees simple human love as a good thing, no matter what her religion may tell her. She takes the “God is Love” part of the New Testament to heart.
No matter how ignorant I might find her in some things, I cannot fault her kindness and generosity.
Like I posted earlier in this thread, I grew up in the Bible Belt (West Virginia), and though many fundies were the vile bigots condemnded on these boards, there have been many who love their neighbors as they love themselves, instead of what the knuckle-dragging part of their religion try to teach them.
Please, gobear, and others, realize that while ignorant, many “fundies” are people of good will toward all people, and they don’t hate you. In fact, they do aid your cause with their votes and their dollars.
“Whatever,” indeed. What was your point? Mine (and, should I make so bold, Gobear’s) is that any religious zealot, of any sect, who tries to impose his or her beliefs on others to deny them rights or injure them in any way is an ignorant ass-monkey who deserves no mercy on this Board.
What was your point?
OK Eve. If someone said that intolerance was the most effective weapon against a religious cult whose central tenet is intolerance and they were referring to Muslims then this board would be all over them in a heartbeat. So why does Lissener get a free pass saying as much about Christians? Most of these posters here are lumping all Christians together as one big mass of ignorant yahoos.
Substitute “Muslims” for “Christians” here:
So why is this not hypocritical? Because it’s a gay issue? I’m honestly not trying to pick a fight here, but I’m just not seeing why the board tolerates attacks on one group but not another. Either way, I don’t want to hijack this thread any more then it already has been.
Belonging to a group that’s actively pursuing the enactment into law of discrimination against millions of people is reprehensible. I don’t care which group it is.
The debate in this country has come down to christians versus gays. The christians want to make sure we never have the same rights they do. The gay people want to be equal.
Whatever your personal position on this matter, unless you’re fighting tooth and nail to get your denomination to support gay people, if you belong to a christian church your donations are going to keep people disenfranchised. You’re part of a demographic that’s being weilded as a club to keep gay people from justice in this country. The next time you hear someone talk about all the decent christian people who oppose gay marriage, be assured that they count you too.
Sitting in church and silently disagreeing with the bigotry that comes from the pulpit is not enough to make up for the damage that’s being done in your name. Get up and fight, or leave the church, or be counted amongst my enemies.
On the subject of accepting churches working for Queer rights – to be very fair, Gobear et al., the United Church of Canada, the largest Protestant denomination in this country, has done a great deal with its stretched resources, particularly on the question of same-sex marriage. In addition to providing same-sex marriage ceremonies itself, it has done a lot of activism on the political level to get same-sex marriages recognized by law, including a great deal of testimony to the same House of Commons travelling commission I testified at.
So, yes, there are Christian churches actively fighting for Queer rights as they should be.
Gobear, you can take Matt’s post and substitute the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America if you want a US equivalent. Maybe we haven’t gotten as far as the United Church of Canada yet but I’ve told you before that the only reason my pastor gives one of our lesbian couple shit is because the HAVEN’T asked for him to marry them. Shit oh dear, our Music Minister moved in with her girlfriend last year. We’re pretty damn Queer Friendly for a bunch of sour old Norskies. Maybe we don’t have the political and economic power that Focus on the Family has but that’s because we are spending our money and power on all sorts of good things the world over and not focusing on one or two issues like Dobson does.
As for laying down in front of anti-gay demonstrations, WE DON’T HAVE THEM AROUND HERE! Not even at Wheaton College down the road, Billy Graham’s alma mater. There was no uproar I heard about when Cook County started registering same-sex domestic partnerships (yeah, I know it’s not quite marriage but we’re working on it) last October. It is coming to the point where people simply don’t care, not in a negative way but because a person’s sexuality just doesn’t matter. That has been the goal all along, hasn’t it?
That amendment is a dying gasp of a belief system whose time has passed. The people who support it are grasping at straws but they will not grab enough to pull themselves up. But expressing your anger at them, deserving as they may be, only hardens them in their belief and risks alienating those who are in the process of growing past it.
Anyway, haven’t you figured out yet that owning the moral high ground and maintaining a dismissive condescension towards them is EVER so much more fun? (devilish 
)
Gobear, I think you’re right and I’ll stand with you.
And I’ll let my California elected officials and my U.S.reps know that.
Not that that’ll do much good…
And Metacom, you seem like a decent fellow, but you have missed the point. He wasn’t attacking Christians in general. He was attacking a group that is, at this very moment, attempting to put their ignorance and hatefulness into law, and into the constitution, in the name of their God. He doesn’t care much for those that sit silently by while this happens, but that is hardly attacking.
Mug, you are just a twit.
gobear, I would like to apologize to you (and anyone else I may have offended) with my previous insult. I was angry and posted before I could restrain myself. I disagree with you (vehemently obviously), but I had no right to make it personal. My only excuse is that when someone is insulting and hateful to people that I care about, anger is my knee-jerk reaction. That doesn’t make it right. Fighting hatred with hatred is not right or productive, and no one can convince me that it is. I broke my own rule, impulsively and foolishly. I sincerely apologize if I offended you.
Ah, but see, MrVisible is. Here:
Despite the fact that I’ve said, multiple times (in this thread!), I am a Christian and I support gay rights. MrVisible is apparently quite comfortable lumping me in with all “christians”, despite what I’ve said.
It’s just as wrong for a Christian to say “Gay people will burn in hell” as it is to say “All Christians want gay people suppressed.” (Actually, it’s more wrong for a Christian to say such a thing, but I’m trying to make a point about stereotyping.)
Bigotry is bigotry, whether one has the power to codify their bigotry into law or not.
I think this is one of those cases. Support of something that is so blatantly harmful to our citizens is indefensible.
OK, I’ve dragged myself thru this whole thread.
No one has addressed something in the OP:
What is your reason for thinking that the intended audience of Gibson’s movie is fundamentalists? The movie doesn’t cover any of Genesis, which is the source of most creationist thinking.
I think this might be some of the source of the idea that the OP is insulting to all Christians, rather than being strictly limited to another rant against fundamentalists. I could see arguments that the movie is aimed at Christians in general, certainly. But Gibson seems to have intended the movie for a general audience, to evangelize to non-Christians and to remind the Church of the price Christ paid for us.
So I think the argument of the OP is mistaken.
If the idea is “The movie is aimed at Christians -> all Christians are fundamentalists -> all fundamentalists are stupid and anti-gay -> therefore all Christians are stupid and anti-gay”, then it doesn’t follow.
If you just wanted to rant, then carry on. You already apologized for hijacking the thread in CS.
Regards,
Shodan
[quote]
If the idea is “The movie is aimed at Christians -> all Christians are fundamentalists -> all fundamentalists are stupid and anti-gay -> therefore all Christians are stupid and anti-gay”, then it doesn’t follow
[/quote[
Good thing I didn’t say that, huh. I swear, no matter how many tiumes i explain that I know the difference between mainstream Christians and the extreme fundies and that I am NOT pitting ALL Christians, somebody will come along and claim I said the exact opposite.
I do not have any problem with liberal Christians or any religious folks of good will, but I despise the extreme right-wing fundies who wish to impose the rules of their faith on the rest of us.
And fundamentalists believe the entire Bible is literally true, not merely Genesis, so that argument does not wash.
Amen, gobear.
As I’ve said before, there is a growing discontent with, and an erosion of the membership due to, the leadership of my denomination (Southern Baptist). For 20 years and more the Southern Baptist Convention has attempted to force a hard-line, literal interpretation of the Bible as the foundation for our faith. This worked initially, but as they’ve become more and more strident and political, it has turned many Southern Baptists and many churches against them.
An outsider may look at the Southern Baptist Convention and see a monolithic entity that is repressing the rights of some. In truth, this seemingly impregnable facade develops deeper and deeper cracks almost daily. Membership is declining, those member churches who remain members are more and more likely to ignore the SBC’s mandates, and individual Southern Baptists are withdrawing from the more hard-line doctrinal ideas.
It’s not a short-term process. But I believe it’s a process that will eventually steer my denomination as a whole into a more Christ-like interpretation of the scriptures.
Someday, someone out there is going to read a whole post of mine, instead of just the part they want to read. That will be a great day indeed.
The part you ignored:
I ask again, what is the basis for your assertion that The Passion of the Christ is aimed at fundamentalists?
It is what triggered your rant.
Again, if there is no connection between the movie and fundamentalists, and you just wanted to vent, then have at it. But you may want to consider if your rants are being triggered by assuming things that aren’t really true, at least where movies are concerned.
I hope your rash is better.
Regards,
Shodan
It is extremely obvious that Mel is aiming for the fundie market because he has trotted out the film for conventions of the more conservative Protestant sects and his marketing department has urged fundie churches to buy blocks of tickets to use as evangelization tools.
Passion plays are for the faitful, not the unchurched. The movie doesn’t cover Jesus’s ministry nor does it provide much of a context for the Crucifixion. A non-Christian who doesn’t know or care about the doctrine of the atonement is not going to be converted by the bloody spectacle of this movie.
Thank you.
I’m reminded of this thread, in which gobear said:
Now, let’s compare that to his comment in the CS thread:
Now, my brother got a letter from Focus on the Family a few weeks ago, and in it Dr. James Dobson made some really fascinating comments about gays. I’m at work and don’t have the letter with me (in fact, I think we threw it away) so I’m not going to directly from it. You’ll just have to take my word for it.
A few of the things he said were that all gays are promiscuous and have never been in a long term relationship. Any children who live with same sex couples will be forever without two parental figures, since gays are constantly changing sex partners. Oh, that and you’re going to bring about the end of the American Dream[sup]TM[/sup]. :rolleyes:
gobear, until you stop making these generalizations about fundies, you are no better than Dr. Dobson.
Oh, and before you flame me, remember that, like I said in the SBC thread, I’m on your side here.
Not to flame you, but that’s complete bullshit.
We’re not doing anything to the fundie idiots. We’re not trying to take away their rights, or rip apart their marriages, or legislate them into legalized discrimination. However, as you’ll note, they are doing just that to us.
The idea that a few generalizations puts us on their level is ludicrous. Are you as offended by someone who drives by and shouts an insult at you as you are by someone who drives by and chucks a rock at your head, resulting in a concussion and a hospital stay? What sort of value system condemns words as strongly as actions? Sticks and stones will actually break your bones, you know. Even toddlers are aware of the distinction.