Isaiah 14;12. Ezekiel:28:15. Ezekiel:28:17. Also in regards to satans end read Rev:12:4.9
The Ezekiel passages appear to refer to the King of Tyre.
What is the debate? It looks to me like chapters 26 through 28 are explicitly addressed to the city (and king) of Tyre. Where does Satan get involved? In any event you didn’t mention the “debate” earlier. Now that I looked over the thread again I see someone already dealt with this better than I can.
[QUOTE=Dr.Colossus]
(it’s as murky as the rest of the bible, either way. a common analysisasserts it is talking about both, as “being in Eden” would not be possible for a human king as well as other supernatural references, so it is considered a “dual prophecy”).
[/quote]
Or it could be a general reference to humanity. I don’t know how you would explain something that is clearly addressed to an individual human “dually” being about Satan. This sounds like one nailing Jell-O to a wall.
I am not arguing it, i think the Bible is a minefield of unbelievable contrivances and contradictions.
but if you are curious why christians think the passage might be a dual prophecy, click the link.
i’m not trying to make a case for it, i am merely pointing out what a lot of christians believe in order to answer the question asked. the link explains why they connect it. Dake’s interpretation jibes mostly with the link. i didn’t mention “the debate” because Christians don’t see it as one…they generally believe the canon of satan as outlined on wikipedia and accept the whole with the bible, so Ezekiel is a minor plot point alluding to The Fall, which as i said is outlined elsewhere, such as in the Gospels. Ezekiel is more of a handlebar for non-christians to bicker about (like this current thread) rather than a make-or-break-the-issue for actual christian believers.
bear in mind you are trying to debate why *christians *believe something…considering everything they believe, nitpicking a murky bible passage would seem to be the least of the major things to attack. and also bear in mind a great deal is open to interpretation, so even then, depending on what sect you are talking to, they might see it a little differently (you should see the debate between denominations about what the Bible “says” about allowing music in church. some see it as total blasphemy to have music which nearly all other churches have music and never think twice).
the wikipedia links to both Lucifer and to Satan discuss christian canon in full, and the fall of satan and the association between Lucifer and Satan. that’s pretty spot-on for what most christians believe.
as i said before, since the question was “where does it say satan was pure before his fall,” ignoring Ezekiel, Luke talks about it as well. as do other places. but most christians have no issue also accepting Ezekiel. it’s no surprise some christians disagree what this or that really means in the bible…it’s not exactly the model of clarity.
and finally please remember i am not advocating this as truth or what i believe, i am just attempting to answer Czarcasm’s questions.
Fair enough.
God devloped a allergy to cat dander.So he became bored and made Satan.
My personal interpretation is that men had become so wicked, that the whole free will thing had become compromised. Noone born in these circumstances would even have a wisp of a chance of choosing the right path.
The reason God promises not to flood anything again, is that this is the last round. When things get that bad again, then He’s going to wrap things up for good. I always felt the Christian explanation of what happens next is as optimistic as the circumstances allow: first there’s going to be a nasty sorting out, and then pretty much a party.
As someone who has studied Islam a very tiny bit, I can tell you that they do not believe that God changed His mind; rather, we just didn’t understand what He’s been trying to tell us. I assume the Mormon’s feel the same way.
Also, it’s worth pointing out that even if the rules do change, it does not mean He changed his mind, any more than the NFL changes its mind when a game reaches overtime. The rules were set down before the season started, and when the circumstances change, the rules change.
IF I recall rightly there is a passage that God is quoted as saying he regretted creating humans. If indeed he regretted that, then he didn’t know the outcome a head of time. It also would point out that God could, and did make mistakes.
He does not make mistakes we do. He gave us free will . But when he sees the evil it hurt him . He made a promise after the flood to never destroy human life again. That is why we are still alive . Not because he does not care but because of his promise. He said after the flood I set my bow in the sky to remember the promise to never destroy mankind in this manner again. He gives US ARE OWN FREE WILL. We make the mistakes .
What people do not understand is he loves he gets angry he has hope he has been known to cry. He is not a big bully in the sky. HE said ,my plans are to prosper you not harm you. Also he said I knit you together in the womb. I knew you before you were born. You are my child and Iam your father. He never said that life will be easy.
He never said a lot of the things that he said. 
That was good! You made me laugh…
sorry
What is the evidence for a global flood?
How did all those animals get to the Ark from other continents?
How was climate control managed on the Ark for animals from different places like the Arctic, the deserts, and the tropics?
How could they carry all the food and fresh water needed for all the animals?
How did they clean up all the waste?
How did all the plants survive being covered in water for more than a month?
If the Flood waters were fresh water, how did the saltwater creatures survive? Or if it was salt water, how did the freshwater critters manage?
When the Ark came to rest on Ararat, how did all the animals get back to where they were supposed to be ?
sorry, i was over-simplifying.
but not by a lot–because when God “sends angels down to reveal new truths to prophets,” which kind of shake up the way we did things up to that point (or reveal mistakes in what we previously thought God’s will was), it does connote a bit of a EULA revision or something. "please review our new user agreement. click “i agree.”
etc.
at any rate, i consider it kind of the old testament, the new testament, the new-new testament, the new-new-NEW testament, and so on and so forth.
oh how i did ask the same questions. “how did the polar bears get there? and penguins?! what about the the animals found only in Australia or Madagascar? what about animals that we are just now realizing even existed? wouldn’t Noah have had to catalog all the creatures? why isn’t there a list anyplace?”
after asking as many knowledgeable Christians as i could, here were the answers to your questions:
miracle; miracle; miracle; god miracled it; miracle miracle miracle (ad infinitum).
so naturally the next question is:
if God just “miracled” all the animals there across the whole planet, and miracled arctic animals to survive in the middle east, and miracled the carnivores not to eat the other animals, and miracled all the birds and fish and everything else to fit there, and koalas to end up back in *only *australia after, and miracled the flood to even happen so catastrophically huge, and miracled there to even been enough water existing on the planet at the same time to overrun all the land-mass with water, then miracled that water off the planet back to a normal water-cycle amount-- why did he even bother making Noah build the boat? why the theatrics? why the hullabaloo? God did every last stinkin’ bit of the work (according to logic–i mean, he said “gather two of every species,” but literally no one i have ever talked to believes Noah actually spanned the entire globe on foot and collected every single animal and brought them back to the middle east). So why not just shout down “HERE IS THIS GIANT BOAT. it is divine and will protect you. get thee upon it; it is full of every animal.”
or better yet–just say “i wave my arm and everyone but you is dead. boom. there is a lesson, here–”
i just fail to see the point of manually building the dumb boat. actually i fail to see the point of the story at all. we are required suspension of disbelief, yet some mundane element has to remain. “we need a boat. we need…some manual action. something…”
oh–and the dimensions of the boat are given, and there’s literally not enough physical space for all the animals to fit on it, so there’s another miracle–miracling all the animals into small squishy marshmallows or something.
also, there’s a “biologist” who claims to have a PHD and does lectures on how man and dinosaur coexisted in the time of the bible, and how Noah put all the dinosaurs on the boat as well, but the climate change after the flood somehow was not conducive to dinosaur life, so they all died after the flood–which is yet another masterfully pointless endeavor proposed.
it gets even worse with Young Earthers. they believe the strata lines in the Grand Canyon–or other elements we can use to deduce the age of the planet–such as silt deposits at river-mouths–were all intentionally placed there by God upon creation to *appear *old.
wrap your mind *around *that.
they are advocating a purposely deceitful God. and don’t get me started on the ones who think God planted dinosaur bones here just to mess around with the non-believers–that dinosaurs never actually existed–only their bones did.
:shaking head:
of course i left out the supposition that mankind (and i guess all life?) only existed in that segment of the world, that a “global” flood was not necessary because mankind hadn’t been dispersed across the world yet as the Tower of Babel came later on–so a local flood was adequate to kill “everyone.”
i guess that’d make it so only regional fauna were required to be on the ark.
but…nah. i saw pictures. there were giraffes and zebras. so…miracle.
If we had free will there would be no punishment for our actions. The fact that God is said to have punished Adam and Eve for disobeying, shows they didn’t have free will,but had to do as God wanted.So the free will is just to do as God commands?