My limited understanding is that before that power was taken away, Satan could directly take a person into eternal damnation as long as they were in a state of sin at anytime. You may ask why didn’t Satan just take everyone and be done with it. My take on that it Satan wants to hurt God by human’s falling on their own. Also Satan needs the most number of humans, so he needed them to breed to create more.
Well I see the A&E thing a bit differently. The original sin, was not so much like how we think of sin, but it was the decision of our (human’s) ‘first’ parent (A & E), where and how they wished to live and where to raise their children. It is the parent’s decision to make, and they did - God respected (allowed) that desision. As a result here we are.
Going into spirtual WAG’s here, my take on it is Jesus changed man’s perception of God, and the man/God relationship, it also ended much of divine (and demonic) interference. Perhaps man has reached the point where we no longer need such interference to make it on our own.
One of Jesus’s biggest leagacy is the Golden Rule (do onto others as you would have them do onto you). This seems like it’s a instruction for a spirtually advanced society, and perhaps the ultimate goal. It’s seeds may have been responsible for things like the ending of slavery (yes I know it still exists in places), a decision made by man.
Well we know the final word, depending on how you interperate the Bible, 2nd coming, 1000 year rule and a final decision by man to stay with God or not (determined by man’s actions judged by God). It will be a radical change, one of which God will guide man to the ways of God, this will be the last chance to come back to God - and actually see the Kingdom of God working - and we will be able to chose, but it will be a final choice.
OK but what if we run into another dead end so to speak, will God interfere again to get us back on the path, If so why is there no such prediction in scripture, remember God already knows the end game.
Some Christian theology. And admittedly the versions that have the most popular support. Not to weaken your premise here, just to identify an obvious detail. There are popular theologians supported by the more liberal mainstream Protestant and Anglican groups that would deny the “eternal torture” element – IMO with violence to what’s actually reported as Jesus’s and Paul’s teachings. We can kick that around later if you like.
However, the main thesis of the question, as I understand it, is, “Why did Jesus, on the presumption that He’s the eternal Son of God, choose the first decades C.E. (or A.D. – if it’s ever appropriate to use it, this is the place! :)) to manifest Himself as a human being?”
The difference is academic. While I will admit the short term torture of souls followed by murder, or just the outright murder of souls, is better than the eternal torture of souls, it still paints Jesus in a poor light. The mere murdering of billions of souls still puts Jesus light years ahead of Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot for my vote of worst being ever, assuming he was god and the gospels are any testament to his intentions. Also, that point was only part of my criticism of your post, and while I appreciate your statement to kick the topic around further I know you’ll just ignore it as soon as you get to a point you can’t talk yourself out of. Just like happened last time:
In answering said question, you threw in a lot of your personal interpretations and cherry pickings that portray god/Jesus in a far more complementary light than does an actual reading of all his teachings as per the bible/gospels. Also in your examples you made other statements that were unsupportable. I don’t think I could go to sleep with a clear conscience if I didn’t point it out.
There seems to still be plenty of sins going on in the world today. The Genesis story doesn’t talk of death of the soul, but death of the body. The idea of man having a soul came much later,probably because someone came out of a coma or was unconsciousness, and people believed they arose from the dead. Pre-dynasty times in Egypt people believed in an after life.
The Jews had been waiting for a savior for a couple of thousands of years, some became weary and I believe Paul saw the advantage of Jesus being the Messiah he had heard the stories of Jesus, and had longed for his coming, this was a thing of hope for his followers, and the fundalmentalists hope for Jesus return today!
If Jesus had never died and was God(in the sense that some people believe him to be) I believe he would have done a lot more good in saving souls (if they need it) then dying on a cross and coming to 36 hours later. Sice a 2000 year old man would surely be believed to be different than other people it would give some credence to the story.
There seems to be some relationship between our existance, the world and Satan, I don’t pretend to know, but can offer a guess:
A & E chose to exist in the ‘realm’ where Satan exists and has influence - what kind of choice would it be if God just off’ed the Evil One?
Also some believe that Satan offers the choice to sin, no Satan, no one would even thing of sin as a option, it may not be an actual option to sin - not that people won’t think of it, it won’t be possible to do.
If God hadn’t told them not to do it, it wouldn’t have been a sin, would it? How could God produce the character of an overcomer, (see Revelation and the letters to the churches) without something to overcome?
As it was Adam. I still see God’s actions as a father that found the perfect method to make the kids leave, get a life and make them never hold a grudge against him for kicking them out of paradise: Make them feel it was their fault. (Sorry God, your omnipotence shows)
[QUOTE=srmclauren]
If God hadn’t told them not to do it, it wouldn’t have been a sin, would it?
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True, sort of, I don’t beleive that God established that going against His word was a sin at this point. Also I’m not sure of the wording God used - was it ‘thou shalt not’ as a absolute, if so then I don’t see how A & E could have, but if it was ‘Thou shalt not, less you will be…’ which offers a choice and a consequence. I don’t have time to look that up now.
On that point, what is the point of making a paridise without a way to leave it. I mean a paridise should by definition have the ability to leave, or else it’s a prison (though a nice one). The option to disobey God was needed to have a true paradise and the ability to rebel is also inherent in that.
I know it was suppose to be humerious but.
Actually not that far off from the way I see it - that being a father-son relationship, but it’s not God who wanted us to leave, it was man. The Father complied and off into the world we go. What is the point of being on one’s own if we were still dwelling on the estate of our Father - we wanted to be on our own, so we had to be removed for the estate of God, the only place (that we know of) left for us to exist is the land that Satan currently holds, but will eventually loose in the great war between them.
Actually, since the text indicates that Adam was standing right with her during her conversation with the Serpent, she definitely was. Adam was setting her up to be the Fall Gal.
John Anderson of Lighthouse Radio Ministries in an interesting fund’ist who does not believe in Eternal Hell (he’s an annihilationist) or literal demons (rather they are either symbolic personifications of evil or madness, or extreme portraits of
people who oppose the Faith). He holds that the Serpent speaking to Eve was
actually Adam himself.
We keep trying to use logic and common sense where none should go. it will end with , you must have faith. lose faith it crumbles like a sand castle.
Jesus was born approximately 9 months after his momma was bumping uglies.
That’s just made up. Nowhere in the bible does it say that.
No, I’d ask why an omnipotent and omniscient god doesn’t just put an end to Satan. The same applies here as applies to the problem of evil. Either god wishes to put an end to Satan and cannot (thereby is not omniscient) or he can put an end to Satan but will not (thereby not omnibenevolent).
Of course even this leaves out some whoppers of logical contradictions in Christianity. Like, why again is god punishing man so harshly, if Satan is at fault? And, what does Satan do that’s so bad in the bible anyway? In Eden he told the truth about eating the fruit and revealed god was the liar. In the book of Job, he kills a handful of people but only with god’s explicit permission, and that’s it. Smitings, baby killings, downing of the planet; that’s all attributed to god.
You are aware that the golden rule predates Jesus by centuries? You are also aware that Jesus told a lot of rules, many of which are quite stupid, and you are cherry picking about the only one that makes sense.
Adam and Eve chose to live where Satan existed and had influence? Are you kidding me? Where did that come from? As far as I can tell, the bible says Adam and Eve existed exactly where they were created.
I guess it would be something like heaven. So tell me, are you praising the evil in this world, or are you dissing heaven?
I don’t recall anywhere in the bible where it says god wanted man to have free will. I do know Paul went out of his way to say he didn’t. Also free will is logically impossible if god knows all and controls all.
That’s like saying nowhere in the Bible does it say God wanted mankind to have noses. God (if you accept the idea of such) created mankind with free will. So obviously God wanted men to have free will.
Knowing the outcome of a decision doesn’t mean you made the decision. And having the ability to control something doesn’t mean you will choose to control it. There is no logical contradiction between the concept of human free will and divine omniscience and omnipotence.
Noses are plainly visible. Free will isn’t. You’re assuming free will.
Cite?
If you accept the bible as a source, it specifically says that our actions are predestined, that all things happen to god’s will, not man’s will. Paul went out of his way to make the point that man can not will or want his way towards salvation, but that it was up to god to show his mercy. There are a few verses that allude to free will, and if you accept them then you run into a very strong contradiction with the verses that say very clearly that our actions and end point are predestined.
If we deny the bible as a supernatural source of wisdom (which I do) I still don’t see valid reason to assume free will, while I can think of a lot of reasons why you can’t.
The bible doesn’t merely say that god has the ability to make all things happen according to his will, it says all things do happen in accordance with his will. The bible is very definitive on this with many examples of what would seem like free will being obstructed. Remember Pharaoh?
Actually there is. If you created the universe with the power to make it turn out however you choose, and you know ahead of time how it will turn out, then any of the beings in your universe would just be acting their parts in a play, for which they are powerless to change. They may think they have the power to change things but this would only be an illusion. If, on the contrary, the actors could change things to something unexpected by you, then you wouldn’t really have been omniscient about how things turned out.
Badchad, as I posted earlier, you don’t have to believe in God to discuss him. If it makes you more comfortable, simply accept the existence of the Christian God as a hypothetical premise for the sake of debate.
You damn well better be coming up with a definite proof of your statement here – it flies flat in the face of about 2/3 of Paul’s writings (though admittedly is supported by implications from instances when Paul is talking about God’s sovereignty).
