Why did Jesus say "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

[Sample_the_Dog]

@Czarcasm

If you dig hard enough, you can find whatever you want to find in the Bible. Verses that were written many years apart by people that never knew each other concerning events that have nothing to do with each other? No problem, if what you want to believe is supported using this highly questionable method of “research”.

I think you’re missing my point.

In that post, I was (explicitly) agreeing with Alan’s comment:

@Alan Smithee

Jesus’ cry is also the first verse of Psalm 22, which praises God for the psalmist’s deliverance. This has traditionally been seen as an abbreviation for the entire Psalm, and therefore an expression not (or not only) of Jesus’ despair, but of his confidence in deliverance and salvation. (Both Jesus and Mark would undoubtedly have been aware of this connotation.)

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the author of Mark knew the 22nd psalm and that he’s quoting it here.

I am not claiming that Psalm 22 foretells the crucifixion of Jesus. I wrote that it “contains many references which identify Jesus as fulfilling scripture”. What I left out (and should have inserted, so my apologies there) is that this is only true once the context of the later gospels exists. The gospels were written with an eye to earlier scripture, and Psalm 22 is apt here because it does “[contain] many references which identify Jesus as fulfilling scripture” from the point of view of Mark. The question of whether Jesus does in fact fulfill scripture is another thread. (I don’t believe that he does, btw.)

I am not at all supporting the method of digging around randomly in the Bible to find “whatever you want”. I am, in fact, supporting doing real “research” into inter-textual connections.

My point is, taking the words attributed to Jesus in isolation will lead us to spurious conclusions. We are obligated to dig deeper. Nowhere do I suggest that this digging deeper should be done willy-nilly.

[Triskadecamus]

@Czarcasm

But, in much the same way, neither does it change the beliefs of others in bigotry, foolishness, sanctimony and hatred.

True. But changing the beliefs of others could not be accomplished with a book. I might be able to influence another with my actions, with my own love, but never with a book.

The same book, the same chapters, the same verses, the same words. No one follows the entire book, so the parts that people already believe in are pushed forward, and the "inconvenient’ parts are pushed aside.

The Bible is as story of others that came to know God. Because it is the words of men, and the history of men, it has the faults of men.

It is my belief that you didn’t need to find faith, hope, and love. You already have it in abundance, so it was predictable that that is what you would find in the Bible. You didn’t search for what you need-you found what you already had.

Thanks for the implicit compliment, Czar.

I know in my heart that what you are seeing in me is just the reflection of the light of God, that has shown down upon me. Yes, I know that some see the same words, and bring forth from scripture a dark and hateful part of themselves, and their power on earth. I don’t argue with you on that, for it would be foolish to do so, in the face of evidence provided every day in churches proclaiming that they speak for my Savior, and Lord.

But, still, I have faith. When the world notices me, and squashes me like a bug, for my impertinence, perhaps I will have strength of will, and faith enough to cry out the word of Scripture, perhaps even the 22nd Psalm.

Tris

“And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” ~ 1 Corinthians 13:13 ~

[Czarcasm]

And perhaps, just perhaps, you are wrong about which is the source of the light and which is the reflection.

[gum]

Originally posted by ** Triskadecamus**

• But changing the beliefs of others could not be accomplished with a book. I might be able to influence another with my actions, with my own love, but never with a book.*

Good for you! I sure wish the people opposed to same sex marriages [to give * one* example] wouldn’t get their influences out of that same book.
Or people influenced by the q’oran wouldn’t use that influence to treat women and gays as second rate citizens.

[tim314]

I’m sensing that this is on the verge of turning into a debate on the merits of Christianity – which, again, wasn’t what I was trying to accomplish by asking the question, but I guess I can’t control these things. At any rate, thanks to everyone for your informative answers.

[Procyon]

I don’t really have much to add since I don’t know a lot about this subject. I did, however, read an interesting website about the linguistic and translatory issues surrounding the “why have you forsaken me” line.

Here it is: http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

I hope it provides some insight!

[Larry_Borgia]

@akifani

My answer:

Jesus was but a man and men despair sometimes.

I do not fully understand the whole trinity deal but I believe jesus never proclaimed to be divine in the first place. It’s a historical fact that men have a tendency to deify other men after their deaths. Usually kings and heroes. Maybe that’s what happened with Jesus.

This certainly seems to fit the Occam razor’s principle. Of course, I’m sure other parts of the bible refer to Jesus as divine so why should one lend more credence to this passage than another? As it is often the case when one deals with faith and religion, it eventually comes down to personal beliefs.

Then why would this passage be in the Bible in the first place?

One of the things I admire about the NT is that it is brave enough to show Jesus “warts and all,” if you will. Jesus is seen being pissed off, frustrated, and, on the cross, despairing. This has the paradoxical effect of making him more believable. Jesus suffered on the cross, spiritually as well as physically.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

The quote was a literary invention of Mark’s. It’s an allusion to Psalm 22. It harkens back to David and sounded like a plausible exit line to Mark who constructed most of his passion from the Tanakh. It wasn’t contradictory in the author’s mind because Mark did not think Jesus was God. The Messiah, yes but not God.

It needs to be understood that Jesus in the Gospels is a literary character not a documentary subject. Each Gospel portrays a different “Jesus.” Mark’s Jesus hadn’t been deified yet.

[Loopydude]

DtC hit the nail on the head. Some redaction critics, despite the allusions to Psalm 22, consider this utterance to be potentially authentic, given the potential theological problems it causes without redaction. There’s a fair amount of tension in that passage, and it speaks to a residual textual dissonance between the second- or third-hand accounts of the historical Jesus, and the Jesus of Christian theology. Perhaps Jesus knew Psalm 22 himself? Occam’s razor favors the hypothesis DtC cited, perhaps, but the possibility of this being an authetic quote is also intriguing, if perhaps ulikely.