Why did Michael feel he had to kill Fredo?

Cafe Society
61

Well, that was a tough year for supporting actors, due to the high quality of the others in that movie. DeNiro’s performance as the young Vito, however, was probably the best, and it did win. If everyone who deserved it from that movie got a nomination, it would have been a little unfair. As it was, DeNiro, James Grazzo (Pentangeli), and Lee Strasbourg (Roth) got nominations for best supporting actor, and Talia Shire one for best supporting actress.

Sure James Cazale, Robert Duvall, and Diane Keaton were incredible, but there has to be some sort of limit.

I’ve also been told that the man next to the Nevada Senator at the Congressional hearing is the man who plays Mulder’s father in the X-Files.

62

Here is something I remember from the book. Kay had left Micheal because he lied to her about having anything to do with the death of Carlo. Tom went to New Hampshire to speak with her. Of course, Tom is a lawyer and doesn’t implicate anyone, but he says something to the effect of “What if Micheal had ordered Tessio and Carlo killed? You can forgive a traitor, but does a traitor ever forgive himself?” The implication I glean from that speach is a forgiven traitor will always feel guilty and try to find some sort of justification for what he did. And let’s toss in that as a former traitor, isn’t this person going to be considered untrustworthy by the family even tho he’s still part of it? That makes him a continued threat.

So why was Fredo killed? The same reason Tessio and Carlo were killed. Because treachery must be repaid. And Fredo had to know he was living on borrowed time. He’s tippytoeing around teaching Micheal’s son how to fish.

[assorted thoughts that popped up reading this thread]

“That’s my family, Kay. It’s not me.”: I think this was a true statement when Micheal said it. Until Vito got shot, Micheal’s life goal was to become a History Professor. Then, he was in a manner of speaking, drafted into fighting for his family. Micheal certainly wasn’t the first person who had to go to Sicily for a while until things cooled down. As for Apollonia? Who can explain the “Thunderbolt”? Calo and Fabrizio don’t try, but they can spot it a mile off. So, why the Sicilian interlude? The book explains it much better than G1; Micheal learns to understand his father and the world his father created better. And after Apollonia is killed, he says “Tell my father I’m ready to be his son.”

Kay: I think Micheal’s mistake was in marrying Kay. She’d make a fine New Hampshire history professor’s wife, no doubt. But not a wife for an Olive Oil importer. Micheal’s dream was to make the family completely legitimate. Maybe his marrying Kay was to keep that dream alive for him but he couldn’t find a way to manage that without giving away the power that kept his family safe.

The Oscar: Yeah, Pacino sort of got cheated out of an oscar for both G 1 and 2. The character Micheal Corleone certainly grew and changed the most. Brando sort of phoned in his performance. But G1 was Pacinos 3rd film role. He was just a newbie. And I’ll buy Nicholson and Pacino splitting the vote leaving Carney to win. Wasn’t DiNero also a nominee that year? Again, less votes that would have gone to Pacino.

Nepotism Gripe: Sofia Coppola was well cast as Connie and Carlo’s baby for the baptism scene. They needed a baby and rather than fuss with all the Hollywood child protective stuff, here’s an available infant in the family already. But a couple years later, she was badly miscast in Peggy Sue Got Married. Unless she was supposed to have been adopted. Well, maybe from observing her at home Copolla thought she could effectively portray a whining annoying pre teen on film. I never bought her performance. And in G3? Wynona Ryder bailed and they were stuck without a young female lead (or support) and here’s Sofia who wants to be a grown up actress now. Well, if Tori Spelling can do it, why not let her have a shot.

63

That’s pretty much what I think, too. Mike didn’t want to go into the family business, which was OK with Don Vito, who had bigger things in store for him, like the family’s legislator. After his old man got shot, who could blame Michael for wanting to get involved? That’s what put him on the slippery slope to becoming a monster, which Don Vito never appeared to be.

As for killing Fredo, Michael had come down the slope so far, and Fredo was such a miserable fuck-up, unwittingly responsible for the hit that drove the whole plot of GFII, (in my bedroom, where my wife sleeps, where my children come to play with their toys), I could understand him having his own brother whacked. I think it was equal parts paranoia and revenge that made the decision for him.

64

I also think that when Michael killed his father’s killer, even then, when he went to Sicily, I think he still thought he could stay out of the business-in a way, it was a revenge. He went to Sicily, met Apollonia, and it was sort of like, “Hey, maybe I’ll stay here, make a new life for myself, and things will be better.” He still was trying to convince himself he could stay away from it. But then his wife was killed, and he realized he was in it, whether he wanted to or not.

I didn’t like Kay-I found her to be a dormat. Of course, I’m thinking of the book, not the movie.

65

That’s one of the main reasons we love the Corleones and the whole Mob thing…there ARE rules… this scene was wonderful because of the way he so thoroughly protected Kay. For me, as a woman, that was a very thrilling “ooooo…my hero!” kind of moment.

You don’t fuck with the wives and kids. This is about men, and the evil that men do…

stoid

66

Ohh, kay. (No pun intended). I’ve been reading with great interest. Here’s two cents, hopefully not yet covered.

  1. How dumb is Fredo, even in 2? Let’s see. Not only does he have the “banana daquiri” issue, he suggests a Cuba Libre to the Senator and others. I may be way off but wouldn’t a Cuba Libre be associated with the Rebels, and therefore an incredibly stupid drink suggestion in that situation? But I agree with those who say it wasn’t his stupidity that got him killed. He got killed because the boathouse scene showed him to be dumb and untrustworthy and ambitious to the point of elevating his own needs over the family’s. A mortal sin in that crowd – and also, foir Michael, when you’ve already got four families trying to off you that makes Fredo really not the kind of guy to have around. Why not offed immediatley? My guess is plot device for timing. You know he’s in trouble but it fades in the background until momma dies. Then you figure he’s in trouble but you’re not really sure. Vito showed in the Five Families “make the peace” meeting that sometimes old anger can be left behind. Much more suspense and drama immediatley then Michael just having him whacked immediatley

  2. I’m with the “early Michael was a ‘good guy’” school of thought. He was a Corleone so not exactly a babe in the woods but one doesn’t volunteer for the service the day after Pearl Harbor just as part of his “cover”. We know (from Tom Hagen?) that Vito wanted young Michael to be able to be a “legitmate” politician, which foreshadows Michael’s eventual attempts in 2 and 3 to go legit. Remember the look of depair on Vito’s face in the hospital when he is told that it was Michael who gunned down Solozzo and the cop. But I think the real answer to this question boils down to point #3 . . .

  3. The scenes in Italy, I have always thought, are integral to the movie. My grandparents were the first Italian-Americans in the family born on US soil. The overriding themes (as I see it) in the movie are family v. society and the “American Dream” v. the “Immigrant Reality.” Recall the opening scene, with the tensions in what’s-his-name’s life, who made his fortune by toeing the American line but then sees the injustice that the American establishment perpetrates on his child-of-an-immigrant daughter and goes to the Godfather for revenge. Think about how so many of the powerful Americans (the cop; the Senator) are as corrupt – though “legally so” – as the mobsters. Michael grows up knowing what mainstream culture looks like and what the Cosa Nostra Italian/American “mix” subculture looks like. In Italy he gets to see the circle closed by seeing what it was like before the Italian way of life becomes melted into the shores of the U.S. Remember the bodyguard (Fabrizio), asking about the rich Americans? Think about the final scene in 2 – the flashback – where Santino berates Michael for putting country – others – ahead of family. The transition in 1 is Michael’s feeling that perhaps Sonny was right.

67

It’s Michael.
-Rav

68

Good point JW.

Remember that this man had already killed two people and had the love of his life blown to bits in front of him. Is is surprising that he’s a ruthless bastard when he gets home? He’s been exposed to a brutal form of clan warfare in Sicily, real eye-for-an-eye type stuff[sup]tm[/sup]…
Extending question…
Would it have been in character for Michael to have stayed in Sicily if the bombing where Appalonia (sp?) died hadn’t happened?

-Rav

69

Overtly its about an immigrant family. But the real story is about how a good man for good reasons does one bad thing that leads to another and he can never get out.

“Just when I get OUT! They PULL me BACK IN!” GIII

The road to hell is paid to good intentions. When you sell your soul, there are not take backs, and you sell the souls of your children too – Sonny, Fredo, Connie, Michael and Michael’s dauther. Only Michael’s son is spared. He has committed to another course.

70

Michael is not the good guy gone bad, he is the one whom his father planned to have “go legit” and end up in politics, so the family could have a direct in. College educated, war hero, and no connection with organized crime. Nice WASP wife is an additional touch. Michael will be the one who makes the Corleone family into a legitimate power in the country. Vito has taught him well.

That goes out the window when Vito gets hit. Michael knows his older brother cannot be the leader the family needs. He arranges to earn his “bones” in a dramatic way, right away. He is a coldly calculating SOB from the get go. He leaves the country, knowing that Sonny will eventually need him to return. He probably figures that Sonny will get himself whacked too.

Fredo has to die. No one may be allowed to perceive Michael as weak. The reputation he gains from killing his own brother is a simple logical extension of what his code requires. He is unwilling to let his brother survive after his betrayal. He will kill anyone who betrays him, and everyone must realize that that means everyone.

I think he waits to whack him until mom dies to enhance the reputation as well. He has no need to hurry. Death is simply his to deliver at will. Not being dead yet is no assurance. Michael will kill you when it serves his purposes.

Michael Corleone is a very bad man.

Kay was an idiot.

Tris

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” ~ Sun-tzu ~

71

yeah I thought so too, but the other day I saw yet another cut - the Godfather Novel which has a lot of scenes I don’t remember being in the original cuts or the Saga. Anyway it had one particular between Vito and Michael[sup]*[/sup]. It goes roughtly like this (paraphrased):

Vito: Michael why do you never come to me like a son should?
[I don’t remember Michael’s exact reaction but it’s clear he’s uncomfortable with Vito]
Vito: What are your plans?
Michael: to finish school
Vito: school’s good. I want you to finish school. But when you’re done, come to me. I have plans for you.

You’re left with the distinct impression that whatever Vito’s plans are, they’re not squeaky clean[sup]**[/sup]. And also that Michael’s best interests may not be first and foremost in his mind.

  • [sub]the scene takes place the evening of the wedding on a visit to the dying consiglieri jenko (sp?) (remember him? I don’t from the originals)[/sub]

**[sub]My WAG is that the original concept (edited out of the final versions) was that Vito intended to use one of his bought congressman to get Michael an in in politics. I’m thinking how he pointedly uses another district’s congressman to get the baker’s wife citizenship because he wants to save the local one for more important business. This may also have been one of the original motivations for Vito refusing to let Solazzo use his congressmen.[/sub]

72

No I think that’s wrong. First of all, very few people end up knowing that Michael killed Fredo. If he had needed to send a message to avoid looking weak, he would NOT have waited (years!) and he would been public about it.

The killing is strictly revenge. It’s akin to Vito - 30 years after the fact - killing everyone in Sicily associated with the murder of his family - even when there’s no political or strategic need for it.

If you want the moral of these movies, I think it comes when Michael returns to Corleone, asks where all the men are, and is told they’ve all been killed in vendettas. What happens to Corleone happens to the Corleones.

73

For marrying him in the first place and believing he would change (she already knew he was a murderer, the papers were full of the killing of Solozzo and the policeman, and then he disappears)? That’s just a lonely woman in love being in denial.

Or are you referring to the idiocy of confronting him after the hearings and thinking she could take the kids? (Telling him about the abortion was idotic, of course, but that was her only weapon to both hurt him and to impress upon him how serious she was when it became evident he was in some big fat denial of his own.) “Don’t you know me? Don’t you know that would never happen, that I would use all my power to prevent that from happening?”

stoid

74

This is something I’ve noticed as well. In The Godfather, it was all about keeping it “only business”. Then, we see how far Michael has gone at the end, with the revenge on all his enemies. In Part II, we see that Vito himself acted purely out of revenge earlier, which is different than our original impression of him.

75

More about John Cazale, who played Fredo: He appeared in five films during his life, plus he appeared in some archival footage that was used in The Godfather III made long after he died. All six of these films were nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture. When he died in 1978 he was engaged to Meryl Streep.

76

Re:Streep and Cazale…

From what I read about The Deer Hunter, they had to rework some scenes because Streep had to be close to Cazale during filming. He confided in Michael Cimino that he had cancer and was dying. He died before the film was released.

I always thought he bore a resemblance to Alan Alda. If he didn’t die in II and they needed someone else to play him in III, it could have been him.

77

I think Fredo’s relationship with Michael’s son was legitimate. Fredo was just naive not a weasel. He never understood the implications of anything he did. He gave some information to Roth so he could improve his standing. He didn’t think it would result in a hit. Also I’m positive He would never suspect his brother would kill him as so much time had elapsed since Cuba.

78

I think I see the horse’s tail twitching…

I disagree completely. One of the best, IMO, parts of the movies is the struggle Michael has with his own humanity as he goes from a good guy to a cold-hearted killer. I don’t think Vito wanted Michael to be a Senator just so they would have an “in”, he wanted Michael to be the one of the family to have the legitimate side of the American Dream. Also, Michael’s struggles with the family begin when he goes to the hospital to see his father. Up until his father was whacked, Michael wanted the legitimate life too, but his father was too important. I agree that he knows that Sonny could never be the head of the family, but it wasnt till the hit on Vito that Michael thought about it.

Four scenes in particular make me think these things:

  1. When Vito and Michael are talking in the Garden after Vito turns over power of the family to Michael. Vito describes what he wanted for Michael, and I do not see anything other than a father who wants “better” things for his son (better being non-criminal success). No ulterior motives, no lifelong planning of becoming a war hero only to get good PR for the family.

  2. The scene after Vito comes home after the shooting and Tom is telling him what happened. Vito asked what about Michael. Tom tells him that Michael was the one who actually did the hit, and after hearing that, Vito waves everyone away. Vito was clearly disturbed, and I think it was clear that it was because Micheal got involved in the family business. Vito was heartbroken that Michael did the killing, not estatic over his son taking over.

  3. The hit scene itself. Pacino does some of his finest acting when he is not talking. Michael does not come out of the bathroom shooting, like he had been told by Clemenza, he goes back to the table and sits. There is a huge struggle then as Michael realizes if he does this, there is no going back. He wasn’t screwing up his courage, it was an internal struggle of a Good Guy going bad.

  4. The scene at the end of GFII after Fredo was killed. It is a flashback of the family dinner table with Sonny, Tom, Fredo, Carlo, and Tessio (and Clemenza I think). ANyway, it is a scene in which Michael tells Sonny and everyone that he is planning on going to college. The ONLY person to congratulate him was Fredo, who shook his hand over the table. Not only did this scene show how much Michael’s feelings for Fredo had changed, but I think it shows Michael really didn’t want to be part of the family. Fantastic!

Michael is a perfect example of a character who actually changes over the course of a movie. I thought it was clear that he was a good guy going bad, not a bad guy living his evil life.

79

no the movie didnt have any about Lucy’s medical problem. Always thought that was a worthless detour in the book anyway.

  1. Vito wanted something better for Michael, he was his favorite. remember the train scene in the flashback. Vito is holding Michael saying “wave byebye Michael”.

2.Fredo didn’t know he was going to get it. He had said he was sorry so that was it. plus he was an idiot.

3.Kay was an idiot.

  1. Dont remember Michael ever smiling after Sicily. maybe that was a hint at his conversion.
80

Abit off the topic, but what happened to Clemenza after Don Vito’s funeral? We see him blowing away the guys in the elevator (While Michael’s godson is being baptised), after that he sort of disappears. Seems to me such a loyal soldier should have earned the right to move to Las Vegas a s well! By the way, FREDO shouldn’t have taken that fatal fishing trip. He would probably be alive if he had stayed in NYC! (I’m sure Hyman Roth could have set him up in some other racket).