I didn’t say that I was an anarchist. I’ve always said that there are fundamental duties of government as proscribed in the Constitution; military (to protect us from foreign enemies, not to run off to every goddamn corner of the world every time some little half-ass dictator starts a little dirt war), police (to protect us from domestic enemies, which doesn’t include ourselves when we take in a substance of our own free will), courts to enforce contracts, and the printing of money based on a real currency standard. With the size of the government significantly decreased, there would certainly be no need for an income tax…this country did just fine without one until the First World War…sales and excise taxes would be more than sufficient to cover the cost of that government.
And no, I need no such public education…if I have children, I certainly don’t want them to go to government indoctrination camps…much prefer to send them to private schools where they can actually get a REAL education.
Roads…well, that can very easily be privatized. Take that out of the hands of bloated, inefficient bureaucracy and give it to an efficient private company. If they wish to charge me a given price per mile, so be it.
Employees…If I have employees, clearly I am producing something that the public has a utility from and making a profit and I will hire employees to help maximize that profit. I can pay them whatever I see fit…they have the right to walk out and find a better job, which means to be successful I must be competitive with salaries, and better if I want the best! I’m sure they’ll be a hell of a lot happier when they aren’t having half of their check stolen by the government!!!
I am linked to no other man unless by voluntary choice. I’m not an alruist…I will not sacrifice myself to the least common denominator. If I choose to associate myself with other people, then it will be because of the values which I appreciate in them, not out of pity for their station in life.
Well, certainly you should get your utility from that which you produce. It seems however, that the only people who “take” from government are those who do not produce themselves, and those who DO produce are enslaved to those who do not; an anti-meritocracy.
I fully agree that anarchy is a mess. I know several anarcho-capitalists and they have not come up with an orderly system to keep our country intact. Certainly, however, the idea of government micro-managing every single little detail of our lives is no better!!! I agree that we must fight against those seeking to hijack it, although I fight against those who hijack it away from freedom and liberty.
Okay, Rugby Man, you’ve got me confused…First you say that taxation is legalized theft…And, then you say that sales and excise taxes are fine. What makes them okay but an income tax not? And how are you going to decide how to distribute the tax burden equitably, so that each person pays fairly for those services that the government would handle?
On the one hand, you seem to believe taxation is theft. On the other hand, you seem to believe some is necessary. But beyond some magical point that you (alone?) have the omniscience to determine it is theft?
Well, income tax IS theft. One certainly cannot opt out of income tax and there really is no gain involved in it…only leeching. Sales taxes on the other hand are at least somewhat voluntary and there is some sort of gain obtained (the product). The only reason I advocate a sales tax is the reason that the military, police and courts have to be paid off somehow and I certainly do not want to be accused of permitting free riders. As for how I wish to keep the tax balance fair…well, it should be rather self-obvious. When someone buys something, they pay a percentage sales tax on it! Obviously rich people are going to pay more in since they are going to purchase more (that there should be enough to make you happy). Clearly, this plan will benefit your poor since they will pay no income tax (but well…you wouldn’t want THAT would you?..after all, we all must be equally suffering!) and small sales taxes on necessities…but they’ll have more money in pocket than they otherwise would have!!! It’s quite simple…cut down the cost of government and you can eliminate taxes!
And…well, I doubt that I’m alone in considering taxation theft. Almost any Libertarian and CERTAINLY any Objectivist would agree with me there!!
It seemed like every time Mr. Gore opened his mouth he was proposing a social program that I would have to pay for and yet couldn’t participate in. His “targeted tax cuts” would have been targeted at somebody else, not me. I was offended by his “one percent bashing”, too, as if they’re some kind of second class citizens.
I’ll state “Doctordec’s Rule” as follows…
Government social programs NEVER get smaller and NEVER cost less money over time.
That said, I believe the fewer programs, the better, and I quite frankly would welcome total gridlock of the federal government. No new programs to pay for…great idea ! Except for providing for the defense of the nation and maybe building an interstate highway or two, I wish the fed would just let me alone and get out of my life.
[Continuance of hijack]Wow! Ya been busy, alright. Great news on your candidate (and your career). I checked out Ms. Harman’s site; nice lady, I agree with her on the nat’l issues. More importantly — my invitation must’ve got lost in the mail?
As for me, I’m now a newlywed IRL and extraordinarily happy about that. (But I’m still allowed cyber-flirtations!) I’m travelling fairly frequently for work, but usually not Western US.
Just so we don’t run away with Stoid’s neat thread, maybe we should take this to email? (We have to make way for the libertarian hijack concurrently in progress!)
[DIScontinuance of hijack]
Wouldn’t call it a hijack…you wanted to know why I voted why I did, did you not? Well, I told you the exact reasons I voted why I did, both the political and philosophical/ethical reasons. Hence, I told you, as well as how a practical libertarian government would work, which seems to be one of the main criticisms (that the ideas are nice in theory and wouldn’t work in practice).
Well, at least I can say that I made myself a name on the board rather quickly (as the “kook libertarian/Objectivist”) :). Although I can’t say I’ve really made it as I haven’t been flamed in the Pit yet ;).
As for flirting, feel free to do so at will…I’ve spoken my peace here so hell let the love-fest begin
Great Thread! I’ve enjoyed reading all of the posts.
I voted Republican. That doesn’t mean that I was an avid fan of Bush, as a matter of fact I found him to be lukewarm at best. I consider myself to be “mostly conservative” but identify with the Libertarian parties platform and agree with them on a great many issues. Up until I reached out and took my ballot from the blue-haired volunteer at the polling place I was seriously considering casting my vote for Harry Browne as a form of protest. I realized, however, that the race was going to be a close one and shaded the circle next to the Republican electors. I didn’t want to live with the possibility that there were more voters out there who felt the same way as I and that our protest votes helped deliver the presidency to Al Gore.
Gore scares me. Why? Well it’s more of a feeling, an intuition, than anything else. The guy sheds bad vibes and gives me the creeps.
To everyone who did get out there vote: Way to go. While we are all obviously divided on our choice for president at least we know now that our votes do indeed count. Whether our candidate of choice ends up as President-Elect or The Man Who Might Have Been, we participated. To those of you who were qualified to vote and did not: Why the hell are you bothering to inflict your opinions on the rest of us? Sure it’s a free country, but personally I’d have much more respect for your opinions if you’d been a part of the process.
BTW,for anyone who might be interested, Libertarian talk show host and bullshit artist supreme Neil Boortz has an interesting on-line test at his website called “Are You A Libertarian?” Takes only a few minutes and the results may surprize you. The site is at http://www.boortz.com
I am totally missing the logic here. I don’t see how sales taxes are more voluntary than income tax. It is voluntary that a poor person buy food, clothing, and shelter?!? And, what do you mean there is no gain involved in income…the income itself is the gain. You seem to be making a distinction without a difference here and then throwing around some pretty charged words like “theft”. I’m sure to the anarchists, your sales tax is “theft”.
Actually, studies show that sales taxes are generally very regressive. This is because the poor generally spend every cent that they earn. (Actually, they spend more than they earn and go into debt.) Whereas, the rich only spend a fraction of their income. [I suppose I am a good example being that I only spend about 1/3 of my gross income at the moment. Of course, taxes take out another slightly smaller chunk. I would probably do quite well under your sales tax scheme! ;)]
Now, there is a liberal economist (or poli sci person) at Cornell who proposes a progressive sales tax to replace the income tax. The tax is made progressive basically by providing a huge exemption…so that everyone can buy, say, $20,000 worth of stuff each year with no tax, after which the tax sets in (and rises pretty steeply…or maybe it is just a flat tax at a pretty high rate after that). Not sure if it is a good idea or not, although he makes some reasonable arguments for it.
Wow…Another cool test! Well, no surprise here…I fell into the Left Liberal category. (Personal self-government score = 80%; Economic self-government score = 20%.)
I am registered as an independent. On some issues, I’m conservative; on some issues, I’m liberal. Quizzes like SelectSmart usually tell my I should vote Democratic.
However, while I am liberal on more issues, I am conservative on the most important issues.
As a child of the Cold War, I tend to think defense policy is more important than domestic issues. I have a number of friends in the armed forces, and most of them hate Clinton/Gore policies with a passion. With trouble brewing in the Middle East, I want a hawk in charge of the military.
On the domestic front, I admire Gore’s motives, but I think he’s too fond of bureaucracies. I’m sure the lawyers would get rich from his plan, but I’m not sure if I would ever see any benefits.
The whole healthcare debate was pointless to me. Gore thinks the bureacrats will help me; Bush thinks the insurance companies will help me; humbug either way.
I was half tempted to write-in for Jesse Ventura, but I finally decided that Bush would screw up the country less.
I voted for the candidate of the Democratic Party, Al Gore.
My politics are actually to the left of Nader’s, but that doesn’t mean I should necessarily vote for Nader instead of Gore. In politics, it is at least as important to know who the enemy is as to know who your friends are. I am firmly convinced that the forces in control of the Republican Party intend great harm to the interests of the people. Therefore, it was necessary to attempt to prevent them from assuming power. That’s it.
I don’t give a damn about Gore’s personality or whether Dubya is an Idiot (he’s not; he is just an empty suit). I think that it is very unfortunate that so many people vote based on whether they “like” this or that candidate. Gore’s not coming to my house for dinner and Dubya, like the last Republican idiot Reagan, won’t be running things anyway. I think we all know that.
