Why do Americans dislike France?

In My Humble Opinion
181

I have never been but my parents, my sister and my brother-in-law reported instances of extreme rudeness that they steadfastly believe were a result of looking middle eastern/north african (my sister and mother in partiular, look very Persian and not much like our actual ethnicity). My family speaks perfect French (well, my mom and dad’s accents aren’t as great) as a result of a decade long sojourn in Quebec so it’s hard for all of them to imagine what they did to incur the wrath of the French other than being the double-whammy of being a hated American & suspiciously moroccan/ethnic looking. For instance, my sister and brother-in-law were going through security on the chunnel train and on the french side the guards harassed them, mocked their allegations that they were Americans (holding their passports all the while) and threw a fucking pen at my brother-in-law’s head and then laughed as they walked away! I mean, WTF, people complain about American immigrations but I’ve never had them throw a fucking pen at my head.

All that said, my family enjoyed their time in France but they all agree they like England the best.

182

Addendum: I never said people are bothered by French speakers in the country. I said people are bothered that French is the language they have to wade through to get to English anything. I think they have a point since they have a 3-1 majority. YMMV. - Jess.

183

Maybe you should read some of the recent threads in GD, you’d see quite a lot of Canadian regional thrife, sometimes for reason and sometimes without reason. You said that the reason why Western (anglophone) Canadians are bothered by the presence of the French language in their country is the fact that they sometimes hear French before English when they call automated lines. I mean, that’s not even an inconvenience, so if this is the sole reason that they’re angry I don’t know what to say.

Most likely these Western Canadians are bothered by the idea of official bilingualism, because it’s no use to them and they think it costs too much money. (When something is of no use to you, if it costs a buck it’s still too much money.) Getting spoken to in French when you call Sears doesn’t have anything to do with official bilingualism (which applies to the federal government), but they conflate both issues because, well, let’s face it, most people’s knowledge of politics is spotty at best. Since Quebec is the most obvious example of “Canadian francophones” in their minds, they then blame Quebec for bilingualism – despite most people in Quebec not caring about official bilingualism, which is intended for official language minorities, that is anglophones in Quebec and francophones outside of Quebec – and because they’ve learned to think of Quebecers as whiners who you have to fling money at so they don’t throw a tantrum and threaten to separate from Canada, so it makes sense that anything “French” and “costly” comes from them. This again is a complete misunderstanding of Quebec nationalism and pro-independence sentiment, but what have I said about most people’s knowledge of politics, especially politics in what may as well be another country to them?

Maybe there’s another reason, but once again, this is not the thread for it: this one is about Americans and the French. Start another thread if you want to debate this question, one with a descriptive title that would attract people with opinions about the issue. You won’t find them here; I myself only came here because the US/France relationship also interests me.

184

Some quick thoughts:

We hate/dislike/poke fun at the French because we always have, all the way back to the Middle Ages. Just because we branched off from the English a few hundred years ago doesn’t deny us our heritage of animosity towards the French :wink:

Plus, in the context of American (North American, United States of American, whatever) history, we have the French and Indian War (England (including the American colonies) vs France), the American Revolution (France and Spain helping us fight the Brits, including a brief foray or two into Canada), the Quasi-War with France (US and UK fighting France at the same time, although not officially allied. Also, the French started it, and we cleaned their clocks), War of 1812 (largely between the US and UK, with the French helping us out with a minor diversionary front ;)).

Used to be we’d ally with the French or the Brits based on who it was more convenient to be friends with. I really doubt the French helped us in the 1780’s because of some French egalitarian love for American liberty and democracy, so much as because they were sore for their losses in the Seven Years War and wanted to stick it to the Brits. Indeed, when they GOT a democratic government of their own, one of the first things they seemed to do was to start harassing us and our efforts at commerce, and then demand a tribute payment before they’d let us talk to anyone in power about it. Then THAT government got tossed out, and the next guy (a Corsican of some importance) cut us that sweet deal on some nice property east of Texas.

But yeah, relations with France have always been somewhat tidal in nature. If you don’t like how we get along with them, wait 10 years and I’m sure we’ll have gotten over it. Most French people I’ve met in person I liked (with the exception of an old crone of a French lady who taught Spanish in Oklahoma. Had a voice which could curdle cheese. And she was completely incapable of carrying on a conversation in Spanish with my mother, who speaks it natively. The inability of this French woman to speak the language she was teaching was probably more a comment on Oklahoma’s education system than it was on her, I’ll grant.) In particular I have fond memories of a girl from Normandy I had another Spanish class with in college. She was cute, though notably and understandably mute on the topic of world politics (we were classmates at Texas A&M in 2003 or 2004, for context)

Oh, and another couple of random comments: Freedom Fries were, at best, a source of mild amusement and a source of general derision at best in the vast majority of the US at the time. France is NOT the only target of such name-change mockery, as any students of American involvement in the First World War should be familiar with (Liberty Cabbage, Liberty Dogs, and Liberty Pups, instead of Sauerkraut, Frankfurters, and Dachshunds). And Casablanca isn’t exactly indicative of American opinion of France after WWII, as the movie was released in 1942. Outstanding film. Hero is an American, of course.:wink:

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Close. We didn’t do it because we were sore over the Seven Year War. We did it because fucking with the Brits is what we do. :smiley:

But for what it’s worth, I don’t really buy the “because of the war of Whatsit” and “because of the Smurf Incident” arguments. You weren’t there, your parents weren’t there, your grandparents weren’t there. Neither were mine. Nobody alive still feels raw about crap older than WWI, and even that’s a stretch. Certainly the average citizen doesn’t - I doubt that many French know about the French and Indian Wars for instance, much less give an airborne intercourse about them.

I think it’s much safer to attribute it to

  1. tradition
  2. recent and current events, going as far back as WW2, tops
  3. buckeyes !
186

Jesse Leigh is saying nonsense. I am an Anglophone Quebecer who grew up in Western Canada, and in neither case have I ever “had” to “sit through” “five minutes” of French before having the option to listen to an English message from a national retailer or any other type of bilingual service. The national question is fraught enough without people just making things up.

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G’morning matt!

I just passed along to HJ what the people I know say. I don’t share their views but they do seem to be representative of the majority. I think HJ may be correct in that separatism may be an underlying issue, though I can’t be sure. It did tick a lot of folks off though and most around here would love to see Quebec get lost - to put it politely. I’m not politically oriented and don’t care one way or the other. I don’t vote for human governments, I cast my vote a long time ago, it was and remains, “Thy Kingdom Come,” but that’s a whole other discussion. :wink: - Jesse.

188

You and I are largely in agreement. American elites, particularly (but not exclusively) on the Left, idealize France. They like to think that France is very different from, and BETTER than, America, and wish America could be more like France. John Kerry and Michael Moore swoon in ecstasy at the idea that the US could be more like France.

I’m saying those guys would be mighty disappointed if they took a closer look. Yes, there’s a lot to love about France, but the two countries are not as different as American elitists hope.

American elitists usually compare the best of France to the worst of America. They compare the Cordonbleu to McDonalds, or Monet to Thomas Kincade, or Erik Satie to Britney Spears, or Truffaut to Michael Bay, and conclude that French culture is immensely superior to ours.

I’m pointing out that the French enjoy junk food and crap culture just as much as Americans do. There’s no good reason to put France on a pedestal.

189

McDonalds in France is a different experience though. Damn but its good, try the hot chocolate for a thrill.

Edit: Although it must be said, you do have to pay to use the bathrooms.

190

It’s pretty easy to get a date there.

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Funny you should bring up these two. France just recently sponsored a UN resolution (co-sponsored with the Netherlands, actually) urging worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality.

The US was the only western nation to vote against it, although they were joined by much of the Muslim world.

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(Sorry to continue this hijack, guys.)

I live in Toronto and nobody I know–nobody, seriously–is bothered by official bilingualism, or by Quebec in general. Where do you live?

193

The US sold arms that were used to sink RN ships, IIRC the UK had sold Argentina destroyers/frigates not long before either. The French helped (again IIRC) mop up the supply of exocets world wide so that the Argentinians were, at the very least, limited to what they’d bought before hostilities in the South Atlantic kicked off.

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G’morning Kythereia!

All of our children were born in the Toronto area (we lived in the Beaches and recorded near there) and my husband hails from North York. I didn’t hear any negativism about Quebec when I lived in Toronto either - granted that was decades ago.

I now live in the North Western Canadian Coastal Mountains, at least for the time being, and have noticed that there is animosity between Eastern and Western Canada as well as the language issue. Why not, there seems to be animosity everywhere else in the world. Sigh…

I’m pleased to hear Toronto hasn’t changed much. Coming from Scotland, I was told before I came to Canada that it was biligual. It didn’t bother me then and it doesn’t now. Latin-based languages are easy to learn and I lived in France, Germany, Holland, and most of Europe as a child, so none of it bothers me on a personal level.

People here are so anti-Eastern Canada that many won’t purchase goods that come from there, but the same is true of Torontonians when it comes to purchasing from the west. That much was evident even when I lived there, but I wasnt aware of the language issue then, and I don’t recall what phone messages were like all those years ago. Well, the common hatred in Canada now, shared by east and west alike appears to be for the U. S., which I find upsetting as we were based in Aspen for so long, and I have children, grandchildren, and other relatives and friends living in various states.

If I had my druthers there would be no countries. I think one of the many reasons I love flying is because there aren’t any lines on the ‘map’ visible from the air.

Have yourself a great day, Kythereia! - Jesse.

195

I like French culture and French is my second language. Having said that, I think the French (and French-Canadians) encourage and quite willingly play along with this mutual dislike. Being a rival to English-speakers appears to be part of their overall identity. I’m sure this has ancient roots (including religious reasons; French were historically Catholic while England and the colonies went Protestant). Quite a few Americans I knew were offended at the delight which French “intellectuals” took in devising hurtful anti-American conspiracy theories.

196

Gotcha, thanks.

197

I now remember the Ira Einhorn case. Between 1997 and 2001 Ira Einhorn, convicted of murder and fugitive from American justice, was in France fighting his extradition to the USA. I remember many comments pretty much saying France was just harboring a criminal for no good reason except to spite America.

198

Perhaps what you should be asking is why people worship France? Of course, the French should be proud of their culture and history. But they and their worshipers just take it too far. In many cases they even treat the worshipers dismissively, and said worshipers masochistically eat that up.

Just read the earlier thread on this very same subject. Here’s my post from it:

My post from a thread about the 2005 Paris riots:

Then there’s this item http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/18/opinion/france-america-relationship/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

In other words, Obama behaved like them. But they also didn’t like Bush because he was a cowboy.

:rolleyes: It’s a bit late to play for sympathy.

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Jackie Kennedy weighs in http://www.france24.com/en/20110914-recorded-interviews-reveal-candid-critical-jacqueline-kennedy-opinionated-schlesinger

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“Earlier thread”? This is from 2008.