why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@Polerius

How can you be atheist and also have a religion?

Do you just mean your cultural practices?

Or do you do everything that the religion says, without believing in God?

A mix of these things-
The cultural aspects are important. I enjoy the holidays, the foods, the ceremonies from my culture. I like participating in practices that have been passed down for generations. Holidays are fun and I enjoy my traditions!

I find the religious services meditative. When at services I believe that many of sentiments expressed through prayer- gratitude for being alive, strength with my community, awareness of the beauty of the world around me- are worth expressing even if there is no entity to receive my words. I benefit from the practices directly.

I appreciate the ethics and moral guidelines in Judaism. As you may know, Judaism can be more a religion of laws and moral principles than faith, per se. I find many of the principles in the Jewish interpretation of the Torah to be meaningful to me and are integral to my core values. That said, I would never fit in a Orthodox or “Conservadox” community. My conservative synagogue, or more likely a reconstructionsit one is a much better fit. Reform is also not a good fit, because they shed much of what I enjoy- the Hebrew, the adherence to tradition.

I like my community. I enjoy spending time with folks who have a similar cultural context as I do.

I wanted to teach my kids so they were knowledgeable and could define their own choices from knowledge, not ignorance. My kids are atheists too, and were open about it at religious school. Respectful, but they didn’t hide their beliefs. The Rabbi’s enjoyed them for their intellectual curiosity, love of their heritage and spirited debates. I was an atheist from as long as I can remember and still felt connection to my culture and my religion my whole life.

Many people are surprised how easy a fit atheism and Judaism really is.

[SecondJudith]

@Polerius

Also, if an atheist non-Jew wanted to marry her, would he have to convert to Judaism? But as an atheist, how would he convert? Just go through the religious ceremony of conversion? Would a Rabbi even convert an atheist non-Jew to Judaism?

A rabbi converted my husband, so, yes.

ETA: Actually, technically three rabbis did. The question of belief never even came up in the beit din, he said. It’s just not relevant for what our branch of Judaism (Anglo Reform) does.

[Polerius]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

A mix of these things-
The cultural aspects are important. I enjoy the holidays, the foods, the ceremonies from my culture. I like participating in practices that have been passed down for generations. Holidays are fun and I enjoy my traditions!

I find the religious services meditative. When at services I believe that many of sentiments expressed through prayer- gratitude for being alive, strength with my community, awareness of the beauty of the world around me- are worth expressing even if there is no entity to receive my words. I benefit from the practices directly.

I appreciate the ethics and moral guidelines in Judaism. As you may know, Judaism can be more a religion of laws and moral principles than faith, per se. I find many of the principles in the Jewish interpretation of the Torah to be meaningful to me and are integral to my core values. That said, I would never fit in a Orthodox or “Conservadox” community. My conservative synagogue, or more likely a reconstructionsit one is a much better fit. Reform is also not a good fit, because they shed much of what I enjoy- the Hebrew, the adherence to tradition.

I like my community. I enjoy spending time with folks who have a similar cultural context as I do.

I wanted to teach my kids so they were knowledgeable and could define their own choices from knowledge, not ignorance. My kids are atheists too, and were open about it at religious school. Respectful, but they didn’t hide their beliefs. The Rabbi’s enjoyed them for their intellectual curiosity, love of their heritage and spirited debates. I was an atheist from as long as I can remember and still felt connection to my culture and my religion my whole life.

Many people are surprised how easy a fit atheism and Judaism really is.

This sounds like an atheist former Catholic who goes to church and attends all the events and ceremonies because of the social and cultural aspects.

I’m not sure how many such people exist, but I think that in some small communities in the US where all social events are centered around the local church, quite a few people don’t really believe in God but just go along for the ride, without telling anyone that they really are atheists.

Maybe in Judaism people feel more comfortable than in Christianity to reveal their atheism and still follow the ceremonies and activities.

[SecondJudith]

Since we’ve decided to do this here ;), in the long form, I agree with IvoryTowerDenizen. Anglo Reform is a bit different to US Reform; for example, services are mostly conducted in Hebrew, with the bits that are traditionally in the language of the land in English, rather than totally shedding liturgical Hebrew as a lot of Liberal and US Reform congregations have done.

Religious services are expressive and joyful for me. They are thoughtful poetry about the human condition, which I appreciate thinking about and feeling once a week. And liturgy is designed, usually quite well in my experience, to reflect the needs of people who pray it. There are sections about the joy of the universe and sections about coping with loss. It provides a way of expressing the complicated and difficult feelings life inspires in us. I’m not in any way saying that prayer is the only way to express these feelings, but I happen to think the Jewish liturgy provides a lot of beautiful and useful ways to do so. It also allows us to warm up yet-unused feeling “muscles”; hearing the kaddish every week lets me try to prepare to deal with loss in my own immediate family (which thankfully hasn’t happened yet).

I enjoy the intellectual playfulness that Talmud and Torah study is mostly about. Most of the editors and rabbis were grappling with major human issues with a sharp sense of humour - some were grumpy misogynists, but I have the freedom to say “well, R. Whoever said that because he was a grumpy misogynist” and pass over it to get to the good stuff. The Torah is also a very playful text, although the P and E contributors are a bit more po-faced than my favourite, J. Some of the books in the Tanakh are repulsive (Joshua) and some are delightful (Jonah, Esther) but since it isn’t an authoritative text for atheist Jews, we have the freedom to play with the playful bits and marginalise the horrible ones.

I keep eco-kosher, not traditional kosher, but I think a reminder to be mindful about food sourcing and animal welfare is always relevant, no matter where that reminder comes from.

And like IvoryTowerDenizen says, there is something powerful and neat about celebrating holidays in the way they have been celebrated for thousands of years. Holidays are great! They’re fun but I also think they reflect things about people’s emotional and psychological needs. Hanukkah is a festival about light in dark places, in the middle of winter. Pesach is about new beginnings and fresh starts at the beginning of spring. It feels right to be celebrating these sorts of things at that time of year.

None of these things need a god, and in fact I think having a figure of divine authority takes away from the meaning of a lot of them. I enjoy Torah as literature much much more than I enjoy Torah as an instruction book. (it doesn’t even make sense as an instruction book, but that’s a post for another day!) I enjoy religious ritual as an expression of feeling much more than religious ritual as a thing I have to do because God says so, and I definitely enjoy festivals more as a reflection of the yearly cycle than as a thing we do because a book said something important happened once upon a time at this time of year.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Maybe. I’m not Catholic, so I can’t compare. However, and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s my impression that belief in Christ and God is central to Christianity. Judaism doesn’t have a statement of faith as a central belief in quite the same way- at least for Conservative (some), Reform and Reconstructionist.

The ethnic component more intertwined in Judaism- if you stop being Catholic you might still be Italian or Irish- make the foods, identify with the culture. If I “stop” being Jewish I have nothing else. My parents were born in Poland, but we’re certainly not Polish. I identify with Jewish history, Jewish food, Jewish songs etc.

[Horatio_Hellpop]

@Polerius

This sounds like an atheist former Catholic who goes to church and attends all the events and ceremonies because of the social and cultural aspects.

I’m not sure how many such people exist, but I think that in some small communities in the US where all social events are centered around the local church, quite a few people don’t really believe in God but just go along for the ride, without telling anyone that they really are atheists.

Oh, quite a few tag along to church with the spouse or parents even though they believe it’s bunk. It’s not at all unusual.

[SecondJudith]

I think there’s also a difference in that atheist/agnostic Jews are open about it and unquestionably part of the Jewish tradition of skepticism, whereas in Polerius’ example about people attending Catholic services for the society they have to “go along for the ride, without telling anyone that they really are atheists”.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@SecondJudith

I think there’s also a difference in that atheist/agnostic Jews are open about it and unquestionably part of the Jewish tradition of skepticism, whereas in Polerius’ example about people attending Catholic services for the society they have to “go along for the ride, without telling anyone that they really are atheists”.

Exactly- there is no need to hide it as it not incompatible with being a fully vested, active member of the synagogue and “fully functioning” Jew. Belief in God just takes a different role in Judaism and Judaism actively values and encourages skepticism.

[Malthus]

@Polerius

How can you be atheist and also have a religion?

Do you just mean your cultural practices?

Or do you do everything that the religion says, without believing in God?

Others have tackled this, but perhaps I can help as well: as an atheist Jew married to a Catholic, I’m well aware of the difficulty of explaining Judaism to non-Jews.

Look at it this way: every religion attempts to “guilt” people into doing something, but what that “something” is varies.

In Catholicism, a lot of guilting was directed at believing in God, the supernatural entity.

In Judaism, the guilting is much more directed as carrying out the various rituals of Judaism, at ‘carrying on the age-old traditions of our people’. Whether you personally believe in the Jewish God or not is less important.

[Zeriel]

@Polerius

This sounds like an atheist former Catholic who goes to church and attends all the events and ceremonies because of the social and cultural aspects.

@Krokodil

Oh, quite a few tag along to church with the spouse or parents even though they believe it’s bunk. It’s not at all unusual.

I’m not an atheist but I don’t believe in Jesus. And yet, I’m also the cantor for specific Easter and Christmas services at a certain Catholic church. (for which my mom is the choir director/organist, and which has a severe bass/baritone shortage :D)

[wonky]

@Malthus

Others have tackled this, but perhaps I can help as well: as an atheist Jew married to a Catholic, I’m well aware of the difficulty of explaining Judaism to non-Jews.

Look at it this way: every religion attempts to “guilt” people into doing something, but what that “something” is varies.

In Catholicism, a lot of guilting was directed at believing in God, the supernatural entity.

In Judaism, the guilting is much more directed as carrying out the various rituals of Judaism, at ‘carrying on the age-old traditions of our people’. Whether you personally believe in the Jewish God or not is less important.

I’ve known a lot of atheists who consider themselves culturally Catholic, so I don’t think the difference is that severe.

[DSeid]

@Malthus

Others have tackled this, but perhaps I can help as well: as an atheist Jew married to a Catholic, I’m well aware of the difficulty of explaining Judaism to non-Jews.

Look at it this way: every religion attempts to “guilt” people into doing something, but what that “something” is varies.

In Catholicism, a lot of guilting was directed at believing in God, the supernatural entity.

In Judaism, the guilting is much more directed as carrying out the various rituals of Judaism, at ‘carrying on the age-old traditions of our people’. Whether you personally believe in the Jewish God or not is less important.

A pretty good explanation that.

My schtick on the same theme has been this:

As I understand it the overarching theme of Christianity is that one should know God and by so doing one will be guided to do that which is Right.

It’s the reverse in Judaism - do the Right things and by so doing you may end up knowing God.

That really was the basis of the conflict between James and Paul as Christianity was forming. James was really out of the Jewish tradition while Paul had some ideas that were alien to that tradition. Faith, schmaith. What matters in the Jewish tradition is what you do. Or as it was put in that Christian debate: “works”. Yes, to some degree that means those various rituals, but to most modern Jews it means more broadly leading an ethical life for its own sake, being part of the process of tikkun olam, repairing the world. Do that. If by so doing you develop a relationship with God, Mazel Tov! But even if you and God never talk, don’t even send each cards at the holidays, even if you don’t believe in God and God has doubts about you, do it. Not for reward, not for salvation, but because it is your job.

And yeah, Mama will make you feel guilty if you don’t.

So a Jew doesn’t need to believe, they just need to do.

[Malthus]

@jsgoddess

I’ve known a lot of atheists who consider themselves culturally Catholic, so I don’t think the difference is that severe.

It’s a difference in emphasis.

For example - those atheists who are “culturally Catholic”, are they accepted as fully Catholic by non-atheist Catholics? Or are they only accepted as “Catholic” if they in effect pretend not to be atheists?

It is simply speaking a lot easier to be both 100% atheist and 100% Jewish, without any embarrasing contradiction.

[wonky]

@Malthus

It’s a difference in emphasis.

For example - those atheists who are “culturally Catholic”, are they accepted as fully Catholic by non-atheist Catholics? Or are they only accepted as “Catholic” if they in effect pretend not to be atheists?

Most Catholics I know think you can’t become a non-Catholic just by not believing or not going to mass, etc. You’re in for life. I don’t know what they’d say if pressed.

I know I’ve had people say I was a “bad” Catholic for being an atheist. I don’t know if a Catholic of my acquaintance has ever said that I’m a “non-Catholic” despite my lack of desire to be associated in any way with the RCC.

[Argent_Towers]

I totally disagree with this idea that believing in God is “not important” in Judaism.

What about the Shema Yisrael? Have you forgotten about the single most important prayer in Judaism?

[Argent_Towers]

Or the Passover Seder. The idea that you could participate in a Seder and not believe in God is absurd; the whole experience is centered around God’s miracles.

I have sat through a Passover “Seder” with a bunch of totally faithless people calling themselves “reform Jews”, reading through the Hagaddah and constantly making sarcastic jokes about the miracles. My own dad was one of them. It’s miserable. I hate it.

In my opinion, you either believe in a religion or you don’t. Everyone does a little cherry-picking, but to cherry-pick the deity out of a religion is just taking it too far.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@Argent_Towers

I totally disagree with this idea that believing in God is “not important” in Judaism.

What about the Shema Yisrael? Have you forgotten about the single most important prayer in Judaism?

I, at least, am not arguing that God is not important to Judaism. I am answering the question of what value does Judaism hold without a belief in God. Judaism, because of its central belief of the importance of action lends itself to meaningful observance even by atheists.

The Seder is actually a perfect example for me. I love the idea of exploring what you sacrifice for freedom. We discuss those that are not free right now and how we should not ignore their plight because it is not our own. Moses himself did not realize he was Hebrew and had compassion for the slaves plight. We discuss the importance of asking questions and remembering your past. Many people who do believe God still approach the Seder allegorically.

Not believing in God and mocking the ceremony do not go hand in hand.

Finally- I get choked up reciting the Shema. My daughter’s bat mizvah is in a few weeks and the ceremony moves me beyond words. I feel a visceral connection to my past when I recite those words and when I sit in Synagogue. I find value in the debate and the prayers themselves.

[Malthus]

@Argent_Towers

I totally disagree with this idea that believing in God is “not important” in Judaism.

What about the Shema Yisrael? Have you forgotten about the single most important prayer in Judaism?

The issue is not whether it is “not important”, but whether a personal belief in the diety is considered something that is anyone elses’ concern.

The Shema is a perfect example of this.

There are two basic commandments in the Shema:

1. To bear witness, as a people, to god’s singularity; and

2. To love God oneself.

The public duty is to bear witness - that is, not to assert the existence of a deity or deities that contradict the Jewish notion of God, and in particular, his sigularity. You can’t go around being both a Jew and (say) a Hindu.

The private duty is to love God. But that is between you and God, not you and your fellow man. Your fellow man cannot judge how you “love God” except through what you do - that is, how you follow the precepts, rituals and ethical teachings of Judaism.

[Malthus]

@Argent_Towers

Or the Passover Seder. The idea that you could participate in a Seder and not believe in God is absurd; the whole experience is centered around God’s miracles.

I have sat through a Passover “Seder” with a bunch of totally faithless people calling themselves “reform Jews”, reading through the Hagaddah and constantly making sarcastic jokes about the miracles. My own dad was one of them. It’s miserable. I hate it.

In my opinion, you either believe in a religion or you don’t. Everyone does a little cherry-picking, but to cherry-pick the deity out of a religion is just taking it too far.

The Seder is symbolic of freedom, and of deep historical importance as a ritual. There is no cause to make fun of the ritual, even if one doesn’t believe, as a matter of historical fact, that the miracles ever took place.

You are of course fully entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to do, is to judge the beliefs of others as adequate or inadequate. If someone is making fun of the ceremony, you can of course judge them for that … but if they respectfully conduct themselves?

[Polerius]

@Malthus

There are two basic commandments in the Shema:

1. To bear witness, as a people, to god’s singularity; and

2. To love God oneself.

The public duty is to bear witness. …
The private duty is to love God.

Do atheist Jews bear witness, in public, to the existence of God? I think if someone does that they are not an atheist.

Also, how can you “love God” if you don’t believe he exists?

But that is between you and God, not you and your fellow man.

Between you and whom? According to you (the generic atheist-Jew you) there is no God, so there is no one there for all of this to be between you and him. I thought atheist Jews simply did things like eat Kosher, not work on Saturday, take part in annual festivities, etc. The fact that atheist Jews actually pray to a God they don’t think exists is surprising.

Overall, I think some people are intermingling the concepts of ethnicity, culture, and religion.

You can be ethnically/culturally Italian and religiously Catholic. You can be ethnically/culturally a Texan and religiously Buddhist. For many cases there are different words for the ethnicity/culture and for the religion. In the case of Judaism, it seems that the word for the ethnicity/culture and the religion is the same “Jewish”.

A simple way to distinguish these things is to come up with two words: one word for the ethnicity/culture and one word for religion. e.g. you can talk about cultural-Jew (the analogue of “Italian”) and religious-Jew (the analogue of “Catholic”) [I don’t really like these two words; I just can’t coin any better ones right now]

So,
[ul]
[li]Atheist Italians are not real Catholics, even if they participate in all Catholic ceremonies and other social aspects. But they don’t stop being ethnically/culturally Italian.[/li][li]Atheist Jews are not real religious-Jews, even if they participate in all religious Jewish ceremonies and other social aspects. But they don’t stop being ethnically/culturally cultural-Jews.[/li][/ul]