It seems like the difference between atheism and believing in non-Jewish god(s) is what’s giving Polerius a lot of trouble. I think it was on the SDMB that someone brought up the analogy: it’s the difference between not having sex with your spouse, and having sex with someone who isn’t your spouse.
If marriage is religion and sex is belief, Judaism is strictly monogamous. Some of us are asexuals and don’t want to have sex with anyone, and that’s an acceptable (and accepted) model of “marriage”. But if we are having sex with someone, it’s going to be adonai-eloheinu-adonai-echad.
I think a better analogy is that someone says “My wife does not exist, but you should still consider me as being married, since for all intents and purposes I act as if I were married”
But seriously, the problem with “it’s the difference between not having sex with your spouse, and having sex with someone who isn’t your spouse” is that your spouse exists, so if you have sex with someone else you are causing him/her harm. So, if your spouse exists, he/she might find it worse that you are having sex with someone versus simply not having sex with him/her. But if God/your spouse does not exist, then believing in another god/having sex with someone else is not harming anyone, since there is no one there to be offended by your action.
The difference is that we want to be Jewish. We want to participate in being Jewish. I don’t want to be Muslim, Buddhist, Christian. Those religions hold no appeal. I believe in no God, but I practice Judaism. If I wanted to believe in those other Gods, or practice those other religions I would. So it’s a non-issue.
What if some atheist said:
The difference is that we want to be Catholic. We want to participate in being Catholic. I don’t want to be Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish. Those religions hold no appeal. I believe in no God, but I practice Catholicism. If I wanted to believe in those other Gods, or practice those other religions I would. So it’s a non-issue.
I’m pretty sure plenty of atheist former Catholics like to participate in Catholic social/cultural events & ceremonies. I’m not sure if they are religiously Catholic though.
And if the Catholic church said that they were welcome and gave them their blessing to be members of the community, that’s up to them. Correct me if I’m wrong, though- isnt it explicitly said that belief in God (and Christ) is a fundamental requirement, as dictated by Catholic religious leaders, to be Catholic?
What I’m saying is that Judaism “authority” (which is a bizarre concept to begin with) recognizes atheists as being consistent with being fully vested members of the religion, save, perhaps, the Orthodoxy. They don’t even recognize women as equal to men, so their version of Judaism hold no water for me.
To clarify- Judaism has little governing body that defines each branch. While the American Conservative group sets guidelines, it is up to each congregation to implement them. My synagogue performed same sex marriages long before the Conservative movement accepted them. If you stry too too far, they may reject your affliliation, but you can still call yourself Conservative if you choose.
I agree, it’s up to them. It would be bizarre, but of course it is up to them.
I’m pretty sure that if someone wanted to include atheists into Catholicism, they could do some very fine semantic parsing that enables it, just like the semantic parsing of the first commandment “I am the Lord your God” and the fourth commandment “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me” that seems to make it OK for atheist Jews to be considered part of the Jewish religion.
Not that I endorse the various beliefs of the Orthodoxy, but on this issue I agree with them.
I’m going to be done here for awhile. You are entitled to your interpretation, of course. However, to equate long-standing reasoned beliefs held by respected Jewish leaders as “semantic parsing” kind of shuts down the conversation. I can only say “It’s more complicated than you’re making it” so many times.
Ironically, I have to get ready to take my daughter to Hebrew School so she can prepare for her Bat Mitzvah, which is in a few weeks. The openly atheist daughter that our very religious rabbi has told me on countless occasions is a delight to have because of her deep understanding of Judaism, her inquisitiveness and desire to debate and question and mastery of our traditions. He has said that he would love to get to her to believe in G-d, but that ultimately it doesn’t matter. And if he, himself, believes it is wrong, that’s up to him. But he does not speak that opinion for the community and has no basis for excluding her from any ritual or rite.
Polerius, reread my post #309. What don’t you get?
In terms of the rules, there is no requirement of belief in order to be a Jew, or to become one. Commitment to a set of behaviors is required. Commitment to the community is. Belief in a god other than God prohibited. Belief in God is encouraged and worship of that God is the Shabbat service, but the point is that lack of that belief is not a deal breaker.
Those who believe in another God (e.g. Christ) but who "follow Jewish practice " have crossed the deal breaker. It is a negative prohibition. Someone who commits to following Jewish practices, has no exclusionary other belief, and wants to become part of the community, can become a Jew … but it is not encouraged. The reason is that, to the more traditional side of the faith anyway, a Gentile can be righteous by following only the seven Noahidite laws, but someone like me, a Jew who does not follow many many of the rules that they believe all Jews should be following, is a failure. Why set up that possibility of failure? Note though that my failure of righteousness in the eyes of the Orthodox is not that I do not believe in a personal God, but that I have not followed the rules to the same degree that they do.
I can’t speak for Catholics, but I am pretty sure you are wrong that atheism would be easy to “parse” into being considered a good Catholic.
Thank you! While she feels confident in leining Torah and reading her Haftorah in Hebrew and leading the musaf service, I’m feeling anxious about my little aliyah!
Do you know what we call a Jew who believes in Jesus?
A Christian.
Do you know what we call a Jew who practices Budhhism?
A Jewish Buddhist, or JewBu.
Do you know what we call a Jew who believes in God?
A Jew.
Do you know what we call a Jew who doesn’t believe in any god?
A Jew.
Do you know what we call a person who just respects Judaism and likes matzoh ball soup but has not converted nor has been born of Jewish parents?
A Gentile.
What kind of sanctimonious a-hole presumes to tell thirteen million people that they are wrong about their concepts of religion, culture, ethnicity, or nationhood?
CitizenPained, I have told you that comments like this are not allowed in Great Debates (or any forum other than the BBQ Pit). I’m giving you an official warning this time. Make your arguments without calling people names.
Gonna go with “No” on that one. It’s not “elitist” unless you think it has something to do with thinking Jews are better than anyone else. It’s not about that, despite what you apparently think. It’s not racist unless you consider “Jewish” a race.
ETA: It probably wouldn’t be racism anyway, unless it’s really about thinking race X is better than race Y.
It wouldn’t be even if you did.
For example, if someone who loves Star Wars will only marry someone else who loves Star Wars, and we decide that “Star Wars fans” are a race now, it’s still not “racism”.
“Blacks are bad because of innate flaws that are due to being black.” is racist.
“Gays are bad because of innate flaws that come from being gay.” is bigoted.
“I like Star Wars, want to be with someone who shares my interests, and want to raise my children to also enjoy Star Wars” is neither.
