She’s not the only one asserting those this idea, so I’m not sure why you’re focusing all on her. In fact, I may be the one who started this tangent. I even linked to a wiki page on Atheism and Judaism and pointed that Reconstructive Judaism explicitly says belief in God is not required. Others have quoted other religious leaders and made cogent arguments. You don’t have to agree with them, but please don’t act those arguments don’t exist in this thread.
If you are a Christian, you are a member of another religion. Atheism is not a religion.
“Religion” is a totally subjective and abstract term as it is being used in this thread and as it is used in general. Forget about the terminology. If being a “practicing Jew” is about what you practice in your life and not about what you spiritually believe, then I see no reason why by this same logic someone could not be a practicing Jew who believes in Christ.
The vibe I am getting from this discussion is that all these folks who are okay with the idea of an “atheist practicing Jew” are basically people who are surrounded by atheists, probably live in a very left wing evironment and social circle, and who realize that among their peers it’s the “cool” thing to be an atheist (or to be a “buddhist”) and they want to be able to hold onto their cultural identity as Jews and also be one of the kool kids. Christians, not being part of the kool kids, naturally are something to be distanced from, and so the idea of being a practicing Jew who also happens to believe in Christ is anathema. I think if you take your blinders off for a second and really think about this, there should be no contradiction in your logic between being a practicing Jew and believing in Christ. But it’ll be a chilly day in hell before those blinders come off.
I didn’t realize I thought Jews were the “kool kids.”
Things I have learned in this thread:
- I am a bigot because I don’t want to marry everyone, and
- I think Jews are “kool.”
The internets are very valuable.
It’s not really that. It’s that right now, at this point in time, among the intellectual elite, creative artistic types, “progressives,” and pretty much everything else that most of the people here aspire to be, it is totally, totally, totally un-kool to profess any kind of belief in a higher power. Believing in a deity means you’re an idiot, a troglodyte, and possibly even a Republican.
I have been an atheist since I was a small child. I have never been cool and don’t really aspire to be.
I am a practicing Jew. I am certainly no Orthodox Jew, but my religion is incredibly important to me and to the best of my abilities, and consistant with my beliefs, I practice the religion of Judaism.
The divinity and sacrifice of Christ was an absolution of the old covenant (ie the one between God and Jews), so accepting the divinity Christ is a de facto rejection of Judaism. If I choose to be a practicing Christian, I am not a Jew, by definition. Jews are still waiting for the messiah (if you believe that) and as such do not believe Christ was him.
ETA: Whether atheism is cool, progressive, novel or whatever is irrelevant. The wiki link I supplied says this discussion goes back over 100 years. There was not to distant time where women couldn’t fully participate in Jewish life (when I was a girl)- progressive change has allowed a more egalitarian version of Judaism to exist. Change is not a bad thing. The vast majority of my synagogue are believers in God. I adore these people. What makes you think that I can’t respect devout people of my own (or other) religion?
This is a really weird thing to assert…that somehow it’s not trendy to be Christian, and otherwise throngs of Jews would want to be Christian and Jewish at the same time.
Christian theology isn’t compatible with being a practicing Jew, you know. The point of Christianity is that Christ created a new Covenant, and did away with the old. In Jewish law, no covenant can replace the Torah, so to believe in and follow the new covenant means you’re renouncing the core tenant of Judaism. And to follow the old covenant and the new means you’re practicing some kind of heretical Christianity. So…I don’t know what you’re giving these folks such a hard time for, it’s not their fault these two religions are incompatible with each other, it’s sort of the nature of what they are and what their relationship to each other actually is.
You can’t be a Christian and claim Judaism because you like matzoh ball soup. It’s different if you were born Jewish and converted…see here:
Jews who convert Correct me if I’m wrong, other Jewpers, but don’t all streams allow for baal teshuva?
The atheist Jews in this thread are no doubt considered heretics by many Orthodox, but we aren’t actively advocating atheism or believe in a non-Jewish god. This makes us less scary. 
Then again, any non-Orthodox Jew is a heretic to the Orthodox, based on the following premise:
Be ye not fooled. The quote I just cited from Wiki is not a catch-all concerning Jews, the Torah, converts, and the like. If so, the Jewish population would be cut in half and Israeli would have a very small minority Jewish population. That’s rabbinic **commentary **on Jewish law. While Oral law is considered to be “the” law, Orthodox also reject some of the Oral law because it’s not Torah law. All sects of Judaism do this.
It’s explained in the above link, but again, you aren’t a practicing Jew if you practice Christianity. You become a practicing Christian. If that weren’t the case, then all Christians would be Jews. Not so.
No one said that Judaism is ALL about what you DO. There is a greater emphasis on it.
Well, gee, that’s a rather insulting statement. 
Buddhism isn’t theistic.
Like I said. A Jew who converts (or is forced to convert) is generally accepted (and their matrilineal descendants) into the Jewish community if they ‘wish to return’.
A Christian who just likes attending Seders is not a Jew.
A Jewish person who converts to Christianity is now a practicing Christian. ALL sects of Judaism agree on this. This is **universal **within Judaism. This is what makes it so binding and I don’t understand how you don’t get that.
If you need further reference, you may look at the Israeli court system.
Don’t suspect anything. I went to a private Christian school from PreK-7th. Ask any Jew who studied the Torah and the Gospels. They’re likely to tell you that this Jesus cat wasn’t too shabby, but St. Paul was a real jerk. Doesn’t mean that Jesus is the Messiah. It just means that his ‘words’ sound pretty familiar – they’re Jewish teachings.
As a full-fledged atheist, I feel like AT is saying I get to set the standard of coolness, er koolness. This kind of sucks for the rest of you since I’m still convinced that Magnum, pi is the coolest show ever.
Sorry.
ME TOO! It was the first show I got to stay up to 10:00 pm to watch. I love Tom Selleck, to this day.
Simon and Simon was a close second, though.
OMG… could it be… I’m cool-er-kool???
If it’s TRUE and not you just making up stuff to claim koolcred. sniff
Oops - quick correct.
I meant to say:
Israel would have a very small minority of Jewish the population having a place in the world to come.
I was trying to edit something I said and merged two statements. Oops.
It’s true, it’s true!
And anyway, I’m an atheist and a Christian and other deity-believing hater. I’m already so cool.
All rightey now, easy with calling me a bullshitter. That’s not nice. :o
Explained. I had this same go-around with Dio.
Easy.
I’m a Jew by halahkic authority *and * majority acceptance and Israeli law.
I observe Shabbat (though not strictly), holidays, send my son to Hebrew school, keep up with the Bernsteins, and study Torah.
I daven; therefore, I practice.
No.
There is a very strict code of conduct in Judaism. A lot of it is ethical conduct. If you think someone is inferior for being Hispanic, that is against Jewish belief. If you treat him as such, then you violate Jewish law. If you do not treat him as such but secretly think so, then you have some issues, but this isn’t like Christianity where thinking of sin is just as bad as doing it.
This is why Orthodox and Conservative Jews don’t have a big issue with atheism if we’re not trying to change liturgy or bring down the shul. See Spinoza, who took it a little too far for the times.
(Also…Jewish idea of sin is sooooo different than Christianity.)
Judaism is a way of life. It’s a philosophy, a religion, a culture, a people, a nation. It’s not as clear cut as “God” and “no God” like it was 5,000 years ago. Maybe you have an idea of Judaism based on what you read in Sunday School?
I really don’t want to get into this AGAIN. Nor do I want to nitpick the semantics, iconicity, and poetry of Biblical Hebrew.
Christianity is idolatry in Judaism.
1.) Practicing Jew does not mean you practice all the commandments. We keep trying to explain that there are varying levels of traditionalist, but you’re not listening. Or something.
I belong to the Conservative branch. It is called Masorti elsewhere. Wouldn’t ya know, that also happens to be the Hebrew word for “traditional”? Just because we aren’t Hasidim does NOT mean we aren’t practicing Jews. <head/smack>
Ivory noted that some sects don’t even require the belief in God at all! From about.com on the Masorti:
Judaism is a system of laws. Not of men. Laws. Laws based on the idea of a God, but laws that are designed to sustain a nation. There is a quote by John Adams that I love, where he describes as believing “in a government of laws, and not of men.”
This is why I can belong to a Conservative shul and not get booted:
- The idea of God is an abstract thing that defined by whatever group believes in it.
- The Torah is subject to the fallibility of man.
- Jews are expected to be holy. If I know what God is - if I understand the concept through Torah - but I don’t believe that there’s a spirit that created the world and all that is good and holy inside it - can’t I still practice the things that make me holy (in human form) based on what Jewish law claims is holy? Can’t I feed the poor, visit the sick, educate children, return what is not mine to its rightful owner?
Check out this bit from the USCJ:
It’s an ongoing question, mate. If you swipe out “God” and put “Israel” (as in the ethnicity of Jews, not the formal state), then you find your point.
We’re quiet atheists. We do no harm. We do not seek to attack, undermine, belittle, or criticize our respective movements. That’s not particularly productive.
Very few things in Judaism are universal. These things are true:
[ul]
[li]To strive to be honorable[/li][li]To honor your fellow Jew[/li][li]To not practice another theist religion in place of this one[/li][/ul]
Practicing Christianity means you aren’t practicing Judaism. How do I explain that to you? If you understand what Judaism is and what Christianity is, then it’s pretty clear.
I guess if you want to go and call yourself a Jewish Christian, you can. You can claim to be a Messianic Jew and practice Christianity. You can go and make your own “synagogue”, your own rules, your own belief system. You can have your own little party, one that the Evangelicals have spent over a billion dollars funding. You can manipulate the Torah. Go ahead. But to 13 million of us, you’re not practicing Judaism. You’re practicing Christianity.
Go ahead. Form your own club.
Good luck with your aliyah papers. :o
Argent, I don’t know how it can be made any clearer: there is no mandate in Judaism for belief in God; there is a mandate against a belief in another God. Hey, He admits to being “a jealous God.”
You really have to remember that Judaism is an old religion with tribal roots. The utility of the faith in those early days was not worrying about salvation and eternal souls; it was that it kept a group united and provided for codes of conduct. Start worshipping another god and you will join that group with weakening of this group, don’t believe in God but follow all the rules and stay committed to the community? Then who cares about your private beliefs?
And personally I am a former atheist (40 years ago and maybe for a decade after), now and for at least the last decade or so, a Spinozan pantheist. No belief in a personal God or in God that is involved or would care. But I do like me a few traditions.
Never cool or kool. And proud of the fact.
Thanks for attempting to explain - although I think the heart of your explanation is that since the majority of Jews supposedly won’t accept a “Jewish Christian,” that’s why you can’t be one. Circular reasoning, in other words.
Christianity is idolatry in Judaism. Ok. Why is that a bad thing? Who says? Just because the Torah says it, with no higher authority to believe in, you’re going to decide to follow that rule? Basing your life decisions on orders from a book, if you don’t believe that book to be divinely inspired, seems very foolish. In other words, you’re just obeying something written down by some shepherd in the desert thousands of years ago (if you don’t believe a deity inspired the words) - uh…why again?
I guess I’m just really sick of having people shit all over me when I say that, when I look out across the ocean or look at the structure of some plant’s leaves or see photos of galaxies in space, I think there has to be a supreme architect of it all, some divine and intelligent force - maybe one far beyond our understanding or any kind of label, but still something. And people tell me what a fucking naive, childish, ignorant, backwards moron I must be for holding a belief like this (that there is a reason for the beauty of the universe). And then I see people claiming membership in a religion - not a culture but an actual religion - and then they tell me that they’ve stripped out all the divinity of the religion, all of the belief in a higher power, but they still believe they’re “practicing” the religion. To me these individuals want to have the best of both worlds. They want to be able to get the intellectual and social cachet of claiming atheism, and they want to get whatever personal fulfillment they get from practicing the tenets of a religion (but without any divine reason for doing so.) And I resent it.
Bolding mine.
Did you skip that part?
Huh? I’m one of the few practicing Jewish atheists I know. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE. I’m attending a Seder tomorrow night with a family who goes to a Conservadox shul and I don’t even know if I’ve ever mentioned my casual non belief in a supreme supernatural deity. I’m 400% sure they wouldn’t give a shit.
I guess if you want to be a closet Christ-lover and practice other tenets of Judaism outwardly, that’s your own deal, but why should I care? As long as you stay a closet Christian. But once you come out of that closet, you’re not part of any Jewish group. You defected. You defected and now you’re worried about the weather of Hell, which is something that Jews don’t really believe in.
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Show me one post belittling theists, Argent, in this part of this thread. You’re bringing some pretty heavy conclusions about atheists beliefs to this thread. We’ve been explaining why we can be practicing Jews and atheists, not why theist Jews are wrong.
ETA. Frankly I’m getting sick of being told how shallow, cool-seeking and hypocritical I am.
It’s not happening in this thread. But it does happen all the time, and people who claim atheism and claim to practice Judaism get to enjoy all the benefits of both and none of the social downsides of either. It seems like a cop-out to me.