This thread has evolved in the most interesting ways.
I have given my personal experience, as well as dozens of accounts from multiple sources. You may not like them, but those are cites. Do you have any to counter them?
I agree. I think this what a great GD thread is all about.
(unless you were being sarcastic with the word “interesting”)
No. No sarcasm. I’m truly impressed.
Okay, I’m going to make this as simple as possible:
Gorillas and chimps are both apes but are extremely different.
If I follow Gorilla God and his ways but convert to chimps God, how am I ethnically an Gorilla Goddist?
That’s the Jewish religion and Christianity in a nutshell. You’ve deviated. You can follow Chimp God, Unicorn God, Dog God or Pineapple God, but you
are
a
heretic
and
no one
cares
who
you
followed
first
good
bye
But! As you point out, Judaism is more than just a religion. There is an ethnic counterpart, which is really a cultural identity + homogenous mating one, but we like to think of people in racial terms cause that’s what humans do.
Try looking at it this way: You can’t be half chimp and half human. You’re either a human or a chimp. Jews look at Jews that way. There are no half Jews. Messianic jews are CHRISTIANS.
But wait! How do you get to be a Jew? Well, a few ways. It’s gotten harder, yeah, but Jews still make the rules. Cripes, I wish I could make an excel table for you.
There are a lot of ways to approach this, but let’s look at the ways you could become a Jew in the last 1,500-2,000 years:
Old Fashioned Method (Purple Jew):
1.) Be born of a Jewish mother or
2.) Convert the traditional (now known as Orthodox) way. Deviation from this is like…annulment of the initial contract.
All Jews classify Purple Jews who were born that way as Jews. Strong majority to almost all classify convert Purples as Jews, but there’s always a little bit of contention about how frum that bet din was.
Conservative Method (Blue Jew):
1.) Be be born of a Jewish mother or
2.) Convert via Conservative route, which is a lot stricter than Reform. You are expected to be Conservative, but not Orthodox because the two groups have different theological dogmas. You may never be leave this group or all conversions are null and void.
Reform Method (Red Jew):
1.) Be born of a Jewish parent and self-identify as a Jew and be religious, or
2.) Convert without following Orthodoxy. Leave and you’re just making us look bad, damn it!
All Reform Jews classify these Red Jews as Jews. It’s actually not a very large per cent of welcomers. Personally, if you are making an effort to follow the Jewish religion and belong to some kind of organization and whatever, sure. You’re not hurting anyone. That’s my opinion. It’s not everyone’s. Hell, in Israel, the Orthodox like to make a big stink about it, but really, Israelis think that if you’re willing to serve in the IDF and you follow Jewish practices, you’re good enough for them. viva Israel
the very very rare Geneology Method:
1.) Finding an unbroken line of matrilineal descent from a Jewish woman** and**
2.) Committing to a degree of baal teshuva, or return: You practice Judaism.
Most Jews will welcome this. There are some Orthodox who think that once you convert out, you convert out. The talmud actually suggests you’re not going to be in the world to come, but that’s still a minority and not a hard rule.
However, after things like the Spanish Inquisition, they realized that sometimes people don’t have a choice and are forced to convert or die, so the little ** after a conversion can apply since Jews don’t espouse martyrdom. This is a rare way of “becoming” a Jew. So, so rare, and usually happens within a generation or two. (“My mom was born Jewish, converted to Catholicism, but f that shit. I’m gonna join the tribe!” is how it usually goes.)
Now, what happens when Female Red Jew marries Male Purple Jew? Their children will be Red Jews and not accepted by as many as they like.
What happens when a Christian Male marries a Female Purple Jew? They have Purple Jewish children, but are considered bastards by Orthodox…you won’t find them in Brooklyn. They’ve moved to Manhattan now, their kids will be raised with Christmas trees and Hanukkah and go to art schools and make it to Hollywood where their Jewishness is known by a small entry in their Wikipedia article.
So what happens when a Purple Jew converts? He’s not Jewish by anyone’s standards.
Red Jew? Well, most don’t think you’re Jewish anyway, so whatevz.
Blue Jew? Adios. So close, but not quite. Bye.
What happens when a Purple Jewish Man marries a Catholic woman? Well, their children aren’t Jewish unless they really make an effort to be, but the Orthodox won’t accept them and they are considered bastards by the Orthodox but Israel will take them with some scrutiny, though they won’t be Jews there. Just Israelis.
There you go. How can be part of an ethnic group? Well, that’s defined by some pretty standard soft science concepts and by who the ethnic group says is part of their group, and* sometimes* who the non-ethnic says is part of that group, but that’s a rather jerkish thing to do and it rarely works unless you’re British or French and drawing lines through old empires a long time ago. (Look at Tutsi and Hutu! Artificial ethnicities but socially binding nonetheless!) But you can’t be part of any ethnicity without a shared history and identity and those are just the minimal requirements.
Period.
I can be born in China and move to the States at the age of two. Am I ethnically Chinese? Well, no. I have ethnic Chinese heritage, but black hair a Chinaman does not make.
Dude, a Messianic Jew can say he has some ancestor that was Jewish but who gives a fiddler’s fart? My great grandmother was Canadian Sioux and suffered a terrible childhood, but do you see me claiming to be an Indian Princess?!
I’m Jewish but do you see me claiming to be Israeli? NO! The government of Israel has a process for that.
I’m Jewish but do you see me claiming to be an Ethiopian Jew? NO! Now that’s just silly.
:smack:
So you really mean to tell me that most “Messianic” Jews have been born of a Purple Jewish mother?
Unlikely.
Dude, yeah, 13 million people who aren’t claiming to be Christian Jews.
roses are red
violets are bluish
if it weren’t for jesus
we’d all be jewish
How have Jews stayed so homogenous for the last 3,000 years? 1) Jewish law and 2) Suppression of majority populations make for a homogenous mating group.
By your flawed logic, all Christians are ethnic Jews. ppsht, puh-leeze. :o
My impression is that Messianic Jews =/= Jews for Jesus. My impression is also that J4J is clearly a Baptist run organization created to convert Jews. It’s not even a question of interpretation, that’s what the organization was set up for. J4J is a nasty, lying, and thoroughly bogus group.
There are other folks who call themselves Messianic Jews. I think they’re extremely misguided and have dubious religious credentials, but I don’t think they have conversion of Jews as a main purpose in life, nor do I think they are lying about their beliefs.
If you and I divorce, do I have the right to make your medical decisions?
NO. Will the law give me all your cash by default when you die?
NO. I have effectively been cut off. I don’t have a vote in your medical care and I don’t get your nice condo in Miami when you croak.
Jews have a covenant to each other that can’t be explained to a non-Jew. You defect, you defect.
I don’t know why we’re even trying to argue with you since you seem to think that most Messianic Jews were once Jews at birth and you think Jews are a racial group.
We can’t argue with antisemitism; sorry.
Our own Jewish community in Denver was ‘infiltrated’ by two Messianic so-called Jews a few years ago. They hid their religious ties and made nice with some Orthodox here and got Jewish services and a loan and tried to be frum so when they were found out, shit hit the faaaan. They had ties to a fake rabbi in Fort Collins who made his living entertaining Christians with “Jewish” history and trying to convert Jews to his “synagogue” which was really just a church with Christian bibles, a Star of David, and a cross!
Dude, if you believe that Christ is THE WAY to Heaven, then your purpose in life is to go spread that message to your Jewish brethren. Some people are just a little shadier than some.
There’s no such thing as a Jew who follows Jesus.
You have two options at this point: you will either stop accusing other posters of antisemitism and other ulterior motives, or you will stop posting in this thread. I understand your objection to some of the comments made here and to the Messianic Jewish concept, but you’re not allowed to make these kinds of accusations to try to forestall any discussion of those issues.
I know saying* racist* is against the rules. I said an* idea* was antisemitic, and it fits the critera imho, so I don’t know how to re-phrase.
This is a debate thread in a forum with all kinds of ‘xyz people are stupid/mean/selfish/evil’ statements that are not meant to forestall the discussion. A mod has to forestall discussions. I most certainly don’t want to derail, but in a thread about race, the genetics of Jews and supposed Jewish racism, I thought it was relevant. 
I don’t attack people as a way to debate. But ideas? I mean? That’s kinda the point of a debate? furt, it’s not personal: I just think you seriously need to re-evaluate. You asked me a question. I can explain it to you as best I can (and others are, too) but after awhile, yeah, I will disengage. And you are free to take it up with someone else.
Racism, antisemitism, bigotry…those are things that people are not usually conscious of.** Marley**, I never said he had ulterior motives.
Well, can I say that it’s impossible to argue or explain a concept to someone who is firmly rooted in what I perceive to be other ignorant concepts that prohibit the change of said perceived ignorant concepts?
moveable object, meet unstoppable force…?
supposing, i speak for the so-called white pride people here? i’m not necessarily one. but here are their primary accusations as i gather. i invite knowlegeable people (whether jewish or not) to give straight answers:
-
is it true that the media is jewish-controlled?
-
is it true that the jewish-run media is bent on marginalizing white people? this, i suppose, alludes to programs in a multi-racial setting that often portray white men as being weak, dumb, perverted and often gay; as compared to smart and virile colored men. and where white women are often shown as airheaded, slutty, ever lusting for macho, colored men.
-
is it true that the media encourages young white girls to idolize and even lust for black celebrities and athletes?
-
is it true that the media encourages racial mixing?
-
is it true that the media represses any attempt to reflect white racial pride?
thank you.
Good lord. There goes the thread.
i’m sorry if my questions are too offensive (and largely irrelevant.) the moderators may excercise their prerogatives. i’m just presenting accusations made to some, not all, jews. i want answers, from the accused if possible.
LOL. You think the generic “white man” gets it bad in the movies, think about how the Jewish man is portrayed. Really - think about it for a second, then you’ll realize how ridiculous this accusation is. I’ve lost count of the number of movies and TV shows that basically portray the Jewish male as either a pathetic, neurotic, emasculated, wimpy beta-male bitch, or a completely obnoxious and pushy jerk. God, if you just went by the way they were portrayed, you’d think Adolf fucking Hitler was in charge of Hollywood.
yes, i always see a jewish-looking man on tv who owns the building and keeps hammering your door for rent. also, the smartest girl in the batch (and the only one who doesn’t arouse me) is named zuckerman. your counter-observation is duly noted and jews should rise to it. but can we focus on my question?
Did I miss the joke?
also, this is not data (which would be impossible to collect and verify) but it supports what we’ve been saying re: j4j and “ethnic” jews.
I have answered it already. Go. Emigrate to Sweden if you can. Conquer. Prosper.
"According to some people, the Jews would take over everything. Buses wouldn’t run on Saturdays and pork, Christmas, and Easter would be all outlawed.
Moral of the story: Hold on to your democracy as if your life depended on it. "
that’s your answer not just to #2 but 1-5, right? good. there’s just the question of speaking with sufficient authority. thanks all the same.
Go poll 13 million others and come back with the results.