i’m not looking for poll results.
Unfortunaly this is the best picture I could find of the Electric Jew. Link broken because, ya know, 4chan. Http: / /chan4chan.com/archive/tags/jew_media
This thead’s comic potential has just gone way up, thanks to the White Power to amuse.
But hey, at least someone is looking out for that most downtrodden of minority groups, the white Protestant males.
I see a thesis developing…Why Does White Power Still Exist? An Exploration of Unnatural Selection in the Human Species
I am too, actually; I think this is one of the best Dope threads there’s been in a while. Er, at least until the last page.
(Chag sameach everybody, while we’re at it! How were your seders?)
You’re welcome to start a separate thread on this if you want poster after poster to explain how ridiculous and offensive each of those ideas are, because I’d say all of them are both. In any case that discussion doesn’t belong in this thread.
We have already had threads discussing point #1. (The answer was “No.”)
#2, #3, #4, and #5 need some context. If one has evidence that any one of them actually occurs outside the fevered imagination of someone in the White Pride movement, then that needs to be presented.
= = =
That said, those questions need to be posted in their own thread. They are off-topic for this discussion.
That goes for any respondents to those questions: Not in this thread.
[ /Moderating ]
^^ thank you.
I doubt anyone will engage. imho it is frip frappery.
No one asked your opinion and making snide remarks about others’ posts is not going to endear you to the staff.
The one time I agree with a moderator…
:o
Holy Schnikes. Go to bed, miss a meltdown and and a white supremacist sighting (mac_bolan? :dubious:). Jeez. Serves me right for starting on page 93 of a thread with an inflammatory title, but …
Finn, I’m taking it you don’t have a cite.
CitizenPained, I think you’re making a whole passel of assumptions about me and what I do or don’t think and/or already know. I have questioned a single claim made here, said that it went against my experience and what I knew, and asked for support for the claim. That is all. Either you have support for that claim or you don’t.
In my experience, yes, they are. Most were born of a Jewish mother, or were born of a woman who was born of a Jewish mother. Those are the ones I have met personally, as well as the many, many anecdotes I have linked to in this thread. Here’s two more, from people I have met personally:
Again, though, my experience may be atypical. Thus, I’m asking for cites to support your claim. Not opinions, not a rant, not invective, but facts.
Yeah, things took a turn for the surreal there.
Seder was nice. I tend to run a more serious and introspective Seder than most of my family. The one I went to was fun and silly and I enjoyed my family, but I am missing a bit of the “meat” I like to do.
You?
We went to my rabbi’s, which was utterly manic with about 30 people. I think, like you, I prefer smaller, quieter seders - last year we had 9 people, which is about my upper limit for a Really Nice Time - but it was a lovely evening nonetheless. Her father is a very belligerent member of the House of Lords and spent half the evening doing magic tricks for the kids and the other half grousing about Politics These Days, and there was an excellent exchange during the dipping-the-plagues-out-of-the-wine-glass bit that went something like,
RABBI: Let’s take a few moments to name aloud some other plagues that are still with us today, and take a drop out for them. Plagues like war and poverty–
HER FATHER: [loudly, taking a drop out with his finger] TORIES!
RABBI: NOT NOW, DAD.
And we our Jewish-food-deflection skills failed and we were forced to take a giant hunk of salmon home, which is sitting in our fridge as I type. shakes fist
I have a container of gefilte fish and potato kugel in my fridge as we speak. ")
I like the “modern plagues” idea- that’s something I would do at mine! I could think of an equivalent of shouting “tories” that would fly at my house…!
Yes, I hadn’t heard of it before either - I think it might be something she was trialling out for the second-night community seder. And I like it as it fits in with the “how is the theme of this holiday still relevant and what can we do about it?” way I tend to try to approach holidays.
We’ve looked at your cites, and pointed out that even the most cursory glace at the alleged “testimonials” contained therein conclusively demonstrates that they were (a) not actually written by Jews and (b) not even edited, overseen or proofread by a Jew - since to anyone actually growing up Jewish, no matter what they may have converted to, they contain quite incredible and obvious mistakes, such as the “I was educated in the Reform tradition, but I always thought Jews were the majority”.
These are in the cites you have provided - in fact, in the very first cite you list.
Let’s start with a definition of antiSemitism:
Do you know what methods Jews for Jesus use?
[ul]
[li]They take the claims that Christians have been making for centuries (Judaism is an invalid religion, Jews killed Jesus + myth of an angry Hebrew God wrought with violence and opression)[/li]
[li]throw in some love of Israel[/li]
[li]and sweetly proclaim that Jews are God’s chosen race and Jesus loves everyone, so won’t you come join our fake synagogue?[/li][/ul]
Please keep this in mind when reading my response. 
Christians have a long history of doing terrible things to Jews.
Per your request:
Statement A: The propagation of the myth that Jews are a race so distinct in genetic origin that it somehow influences their natural personalities crosses over to Antisemitism very easily. It’s dangerous language. This isn’t everyone’s opinion. It’s mine, and not a minority one. I’ll explain after this blurb -
The Jesus movement itself its anti-Semitic, according to some. When talking about the organization Jews for Jesus, I agree. But that’s not my major point of contention right now.
Statement B: It is very unlikely that most Messianic Jews were born and raised Jewish.
This is based on several factors:
–> Why do Jews stick together, even when they don’t believe all the same stuff?
[ol]
[li]Homogenous mating until the recent generation (remember, we take converts if they want to come join)[/li][li]Cultural factors - all subcultures of Judaism have common denominators: language, history, religion, basic familial custom, texts and literature[/li][li]4,000 year history of being a suppressed minority will strengthen the minority against a majority if the minority has kept its culture intact[/li][li]a strong Jewish identity that has survived across continents and was strong enough to create a new political state - and a largely successful one at that[/li][li]The most obvious: backlash that comes with leaving Judaism.[/li][/ol]
All of these sociological, historical, and psychological factors point to: not likely.
—> What other possible factors in Jews’ upbringing (besides the obvious) makes a Jew unlikely to join Jews for Jesus?
[ol]
[li]Additionally, you could make the argument that since Jews do worship God, a spiritually-deprived Jew could find his niche anywhere in the community. We’ve already addressed the diversity of Jews in this thread. What do we need Jesus for? 
[/li]
[li]Since Jews are not raised with the indoctrination of personal salvation from Hell like others are, it’s not psychologically imprinted. Things like “preaching” and “Hell” and “Man Messiah” and “human sacrifice” are not taught in Judaism – Preaching Christianity is Jews are brought up to not do. It’s rude - not to mention horribly offensive if you’re doing it to Jews.[/li]
[li]The strongest statement that I think the posters in here feel, really, is that Jews for Jesus is one of the most offensive movements in recent Jewish memory. Some say this movement is designed religious antiSemitism:[/li]
Attempting to wipe out an ethnic group* is* kinda mean. :o
[/ol]
My original statement that has caused the tenth blow up in this thread was:
to which you replied:
First, I said plenty. Enough to be suspicious. Consider that j4j is a billion dollar movement started by Evangelical Christians! Sure, cite me all the stories you want on the internet. But honey, people have been trying to convert Jews for two thousand years and with the advancement of science and the rise in atheism, why would Jews start turning tables now?
I’m not saying that Jews have never intermarried. It happens. Sometimes they do convert. We know that. But the Catholics have already falsely claimed one of our great sages as one of their saints, so we’re not always trustworthy of Christian claims about our people. I’m with Finn et al. on this one.
When I was a junior and senior at UNC, I had FOUR people tell me that they were Messianic Jews. Guess what? They were Christians who liked attending the “Christian” synagogue in town! (Small town, no less. How did they get Jewish members? All the Jews were at the university and they all went to the shul the next town over.) One had the nerve to ask if I’d teach her how to read Hebrew. :rolleyes:
Bottom line: Jews that do convert (and it’s still pretty rare) generally don’t become missionaries. We had that opportunity 2,000 years ago and 13 million of us are still pretty content with that decision.
The former Jews that I know that are Christians just settled into their respective churches and that was that.
The one thing you can’t argue against:
A Jew who converts of his own free will is an apostate.
The secret Jews of Spain in the Inquisition years? Kind of impressive, actually.
Jews for Jesus? Not.
–> Tackling your “ethnic origin” statements
[ol]
[li]A child of a convert is not a Jew. So your claim that ‘some are born of Jewish mothers’ doesn’t really hold unless they were also raised Jewish. Yet:[/li][li]A Jew that converts is no longer a Jew.[/li][li]Looking at TV and reading Anne Frank doesn’t make you part of a culture. [/li][li]Jews are an ethnicity in the sense that they share: history, language, culture/s, religion, literature, identity, a set of rules and government, and a tie to a geographical region.[/li][li]However, you need to be careful with this term because people confuse ethnicity and race. I won’t get into the 40,000 reasons why race isn’t science, but Judaism is a group that can effectively permanently exclude other Jews from the community. Even Israel has a way of doing this.[/li][li]A Jew who converts may have memories of a former group he/she belonged to, but that’s it. [/li][li]Arguably, Jews with the strongest Jewish identity and education (Torah, Talmud, practice) are Orthodox Jews, and this group is the least likely to leave. This is the group that Messianic Jews try to emulate. It’s ironic, really.[/li][li]What else makes this night different from all other nights? You can join the Jewish ethnicity by converting, just like Ruth did. A convert to Judaism is a Jew. Just like that. Not a convert. A Jew. Welcome to the Tribe. Have a matzo ball. Wow, I wish I could go and be ethnically Brazilian. I’d never be single again.[/li][/ol]
–> Jews as a race: antisemitism
Disclaimer one: This is my opinion, and while many agree with me, it is not as universal and clear cut as “Christians aren’t Jews”.
Disclaimer Two: You can be bigoted about something or have a prejudice without being a jerk or having ulterior motives. Everyone has a degree of prejudice. Some of it can really hurt people, though, and a little self-check is good. I rate myself as a 4 on the 1-10 scale, and that’s because of my knee-jerk reaction to my Palestinian friends and gang culture. And I’m a liberal weenie! If I can be honest, so can you.
This is not a personal attack on you. I am trying to show how words can be dangerous. I don’t think you’re evil or something. I just want you to consider the views of the people you are classifying.
I had also lot of preconceived notions about the Deaf community before I started my linguistics program and made Deaf friends. I didn’t even realize I was subconsciously trying to assert a cultural superiority! D’oh.
here we go:
[ol]
[li]**Jews are not a race. **Races don’t really exist on a scientific scale in humans, so that’s a silly assertion. But like I’ve stated, the fact that you can be a Jew and not be a Jew by virtue of religion kind of hurts your argument…dang, I wish I was a hot Brazilian chick![/li][li]The idea that Jews are a race has led to very undesirable consequences, such as: pogoms in Russia, expulsion from Spain, Holocaust…(even Jewish converts and Christians of Jewish parents were not immune)…KKK and White Power…[/li][li]Stuff like this is dangerous talk. Look at this picture and tell me that’s not what you’re trying to say.[/li][li]Leave race and “genetic origin” to the Hitlers and Mengeles of the world. Unless you’re a geneticist that practices real science, there is no need for you to worry about recessive Tay Sachs or Kohen traits.[/li][li]This stuff is so cool, but it has no basis in your race claim:[/li][QUOTE]
[li]The J1e and J2a possible Cohen clusters (only one of them could indicate ancestry from Aaron), when including those tested who are of Sephardi background, have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200 ± 1,100 and 4,200 ± 1,300 years ago respectively. Ashkenazis only have been estimated by the same article as descending from most recent common ancestors living 2,400 ± 800 and 3,800 ± 1,200 years ago respectively.[1][/li][/QUOTE]
[li]BUT the idea that Jews are so genetically different from non-Jews that they could be born and somehow have a tie to their “ethnic identity” without it being taught is…ridiculous. [/li][li]No one knows their ethnicity or culture when they are born. That is something you learn. Do you know what your eye color is at 12 months old? How about your reproductive system? Chances of getting breast cancer? :dubious:[/li][li]Do concepts of ethnicity and culture exist? Absolutely. The difference? Ethnicity has stricter rules and are pretty homogenous - not to mention we share geographic regions.** [/li][li]It doesn’t mean race**. It just means we tend to marry and mate with like-minded folk. Like Ivory will tell you, some of them even convert and marry us. :)[/li][/ol]
[http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/498027/jewish/Are-Jews-a-Race.htmNot a race
If you want someone to back you up on that claim, you can visit white supremacists’ websites.
Jewish intelligence? Meh! Chalk it up to our Socratic upbringing!
Don’t call Jews a raced based on our “genetic” history and our “deep ties” to something. Do *not *make a claim that a child of a Jewish grandparent is just as invested in Judaism as I am. Don’t.
I doubt it’s like you say. I doubt most of those Christians you talked to were really raised Jewish. If so, that’s sad, and some parents are going to have to step it up. Your statement, Most were born of a Jewish mother, or were born of a woman who was born of a Jewish mother isn’t gonna fly. Grandchildren of Jewish women aren’t Jews if they’re not practicing. Period.
Jews are thirteen million. Not as high as we could be, thanks to rampant Jewish hatred over the years, but I think we’re all right. We aren’t going anywhere. Threads like these just remind me of how important it is to keep the people going.
My mom’s family assimilated. I didn’t get to grow up Jewish. I had to do that later thanks to Christians who are so hell bent on eradicating Jews, because let’s face it: Jews are the biggest threat to Christians. They could not convert us so they started converting everyone else! Makes the movement look bad, eh.
So no, I’m** not** going to sit here quietly while you propagate myth that only hurts the Jewish community.
I would like to live in a world where Jews exist; thanks.
(note: The AJC is the primary source for research on Jewish Demographics)
While we all cringe at the rates of intermarriage and the possible decline of the Jewish family, it should be noted thatif Jews today aren’t being raised Jewish, it’s hard for you to claim most converts were raised in Jewish-centered homes, nu?
It’s a sad world when How To Deal With Jews For Jesus comes out. These people use trickery.
Jews for Jesus claim that Judaism is invalid. We have spent centuries defending our ways and we’re now in a place where we are recognized as a valid religion by by the whole world and now someone wants to come along and tell us it is not complete?
And then you want to argue that Jews are a race and converts have some genetic tie to Judaism that makes them ‘no less Jewish’ than us?
I do not care what your intentions are. Words are powerful, and your words hurt people.
Oops, I forgot to put this in my last post. Missed the edit mark. I bolded the portions that are of reasonable concern.
I think the following question may need its own thread, but I’ll ask it here, since it’s related to the OP and the discussion in this thread, and see how it goes.
An overarching theme in this thread is the desire for the continuation of Judaism, or the continuation of the existence of Jews. However, given that
[ol]
[li]Belief in the supernatural is not required to be a Jew[/li][li]Having the right set of genes is not required to be a Jew (since anyone can convert to Judaism)[/li][/ol]
It’s not clear to me what exactly are Jewish people trying to help survive through the ages.
For example, Catholics are striving for the continuation of the Catholic faith in Jesus and God as creator of the universe. And Italians and other minorities are striving for the continuation of the genetic heritage that makes them who they are.
Given that the belief in God is not needed to be a Jew, and given the ability of anyone to become a Jew, I don’t see “faith in my supernatural entity” or “my genetic heritage” as the reasons for the desire to make sure Jews survive through the ages.
Are you guys trying to allow a “way of life”, or a “cultural framework” to survive?
If, by some accident of history, 500 years from now, the only people practising Judaism are some Africans in Namibia, would that be an acceptable outcome for you, since the Jewish religion has survived? Or do you also want for the people with Jewish genetic heritage to survive, in addition to the religion?
Also, if 500 years from now, if the whole world is practising Judaism (including people with Jewish genetic heritage and everyone else on the planet), would that be a good outcome in your eyes, or would you rather prefer that only a small subset of humanity practices Judaism (since if everyone in the world is a Jew, it dilutes what it means to be a Jew)
Basically, can you expand on what exactly are Jewish people trying to help survive through the ages? The religion, the genetic heritage, the way of life, the combination of the above, something else?
That Jews, as a tribe / people, survive; the ideal is that this tribe perfect their own behaviour, so as to act as a “light unto the nations” - that is, that through their example of goodness, others are convinced to emulate them.
There is no ideal that everyone become Jewish themselves, or that Jews must always be a minority (though this is realistically expected). Rather, the focus is on ever-improving Jewish morality, to act as an inspiration for humanity generally. The term usually employed to represent this idealistic wish is “Tikkun olam”, or “to repair the world”.
How does this relate to the fact that you allow anyone to convert to Judaism? Aren’t you “diluting” the tribe/people?
What does “the Jewish tribe” mean, in a world where a Scandinavian, a Chinese person, an Indian person, etc, can convert to Judaism?
Are they part of the tribe once they convert? Or are you only part of the tribe if one of your parents was?
Also, given your answer, I assume that if, by some accident of history, 500 years from now, the only people practicing Judaism are a few million Africans in Namibia, this would not be an acceptable outcome for you. Is this correct?