why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism?

Great Debates
481

I can try to address this.

Jews want Jews to continue. Some are more aggressive than others. The idea that everything we’ve been doing for the last few thousand years becoming extinct is awful.

There is a huge wave of young 20 to 30 something organizations of Jews that do things that are “culturally” Jewish and explore theology and basically try to give the Wandering Young Jew a home. It can be part of the local kollel, a secular Jewish gay/rights org, Hillel, whatever. Jdate.com is an example of sheer genius + benefit to the Jewish people. :wink:

Thing is, the Jewish community used to be petty tightly packed around each other, but now everyone is so mobile. New community structures are emerging to address that. We’re also in a post-guilt-Holocaust phase and into a Jewish/Israel identity crisis phase.

The Reform movement was pretty strong when it started and it was a strong intellectual force in Zionism. Unfortunately, the Reform have kind of slipped away from Jewish observance in many places and kids don’t feel “attached” to what others think is sacred (even if they are atheist). The Conservative movement was a response to the reform and was the forward-thinking intellectual and religious form of Judaism. Jews have a lot of choices - maybe that’s our problem. Maybe it’ll save us.

Now that we have the freedom to move about the country, :wink: we’re less likely to be nervous about assimilation.

But…Judaism has withstood a petty major litmus test. I don’t think we’ll cease to exist. And if every single Jew in the United States converted to Christianity and then 6 million Torah-observing Jews in Africa arose, then what do I care? Gosh, I just hope my son doesn’t give this up.

100 Jews in Africa? Well, that would be sad. I think Judaism is beautiful. But then I also think of the things that Judaism has left: foundations for Western law, philosophies, physics, universities, literature, history, countless famous people, the Polio vaccine, our commitment to fight bigotry (ie ADL’s amazing programs in schools), whatever. We made our mark and we have affected every single person on this earth in a good way. It doesn’t negate mistakes, but if Jews ever cease to exist, I’m sure they’ll be as esteemed. And if not, the things that we believe in will continue on.

Also, belief in the supernatural is still pretty common in Jewish circles. I’d say majority. But since it’s not stressed, we don’t think about it. Instead, what’s emphasized is the social phenomena of nationhood and the psychological attachment to it.

Obervant/cultural/whatever Jews think that Judaism is a religion that will survive with or without God, because Judaism is about each other. And repairing the world.

:slight_smile:

482

Converts are, by Jewish law, to be treated exactly as Jewish as someone whose every ancestor was a Jew.

Some Jews don’t do that - and if they don’t, they are not only rude, but they are breaking Jewish law.

Jews are not concerned at all about “diluting” the Jewish tribe. They do not encourage conversion because prostheletism is considered offensive and rude, and because they only want those who have an actual interest in following Jewish traditions to become Jews.

The Jewish “tribe” is just that - a self-identity, ruled by traditions and ethical practices that both go back thousands of years and are constantly being questioned and re-interpreted, and of which there is no sole arbiter. These traditions and practices define who is “in” the “tribe”.

Personally, I’d not care, though obviously like any human I’d like to see some of my descendants surviving and practicing my culture. As for Jews generally, what would matter is whether these few million Africans are the moral Jews they ought to be. Jews have nothing whatsoever against Africans being Jews (if that is the issue) - there are in fact a considerable number of Black African Jews, known as the “Beta Israel” or Ethiopian Jews.

483

1.) You have to be serious about being Jewish to convert.
2.) </snort> No. Do you think political parties question new ‘converts’? I mean, Judaism is more than a philosophy, but there’s no notion of superior genetics.

We’ve answered this…started as a religion…became a nation…nation dispersed…became subcultures…2,000 years later a nation again with Diaspora…survived countless attacks on our lives and ways…have our own set of rules, normative beliefs, language, history, art…

Part of the tribe. Judaism makes no distinction. You are not even allowed to call someone a convert. It is insulting. Judaism holds that anyone who is a convert was meant to be Jewish. And since we place high bars on those who do want to convert, people who convert are usually pretty traditional.

(yeah, I’m answering for myself)

Yes, that would be bad. Because now we have approx 13 million. To decrease that much suggests some kind of catastrophe or shoah. Africans have nothing to do with it.

If a Very Bad Thing happened and later there were 2 million Nambians practicing Judaism, that just furthers my position that Judaism will always survive.

484

In the hypothetical, these several million African Jews are strictly following Jewish laws/traditions, exactly as they are followed by today’s most observant Jews.

485

[Reform] Well, “most observant” doesn’t necessarily mean “most moral” … [/Reform] :wink:

But yeah, aside from the “I hope my descendants stay in the culture” and “I hope there is nothing bad that kills off all non-african Jews”, I don’t see how it matters.

486

OK. Given the above, and assuming that you prefer the above scenario to a world where no one practices Judaism, it seems that what you want to continue through the ages is a certain “way of life” a set of rules and rituals by which to live. Is this correct?

487

It means that people from all walks of life, from all nations, all ages, all backgrounds, all cultures are welcome to join our International Hebrew Fraternity Tent. People who want to join have strict requirements they must meet - they are expected to be practicing Jews - yet they still join. Must be some value to it. :slight_smile:

There are Jews from everywhere in the world in this Tribe. Obviously our beliefs, our traditions, our culture, and our philosophies in life are very valid.

What you said - what does a Jewish tribe mean if anyone who wants to be practicing Jew can do so ? It means that myths that have been propagated about Jews -

Christ killers
Murderers
Thrives
Rats
Inferior
Backwards

etc.

are all very likely not true. We don’t preach or encourage people to convert. People come to us.

That says a lot.

488

Pretty much - with the caveat that the “way of life” at least some Jews are striving for goes beyond the mere “rules and rituals” and looks to a moral ideal which will, as the phrase goes, “repair the world”.

Hence the continual tensions within Judaism between clinging to ancestral rituals and looking to create a way of life that is optimally moral - or whether these two are one and the same.

His explains the various sects and denominations of Judaism - for example, Reconstructionism:

Different Jews reach different conclusions as to how to resolve this tension, which lies at the very heart of Jewery.

489

Sure- stereotypical eastern-European Jewish culture now (think New York Jews) are very different from the Middle Eastern more Semitic tribes that got the whole ball rolling. Those folks wouldn’t recognize bagels and lox or even Yiddish expression we equate as Jewish culture.

Israeli culture, for example, is not the same as New York Jewish culture. So if in 500 years instead of lox and bagels it’s taro and yams… if the Jewish ideals persist I’d call it a win.

ETA: with respect to tribal identity- I’ve always said that my parents, who were born in Poland in the 1920s, would have had more culturally in common with Jews in other countries than their neighboring Poles.

490

Look at how we all jumped to each other’s defense in this thread and we are so different from each other.

I have a feeling that short of a natural disaster, if a Very Bad Thing was about to happen, we’d find ourselves united pretty quickly.

491

:o Should’ve come to Iowa.

492

CitizenPained, I’m going to decline to engage your post, because you talking about all sorts of things that are completely irrelevant, at least as far as what I’ve asked about; and your implication that I’m somehow complicit in anti-semitism because I’ve asked people to support their claims is ignorant, insulting, and deeply unintellectual.

If you have cites or responses for the direct and specific questions I’ve asked, I’m open to hearing them (see below). Otherwise, I’ve no interest in wasting my time on you.

Sorry, but no. You criticized one line in one of my cites. That is not nearly enough to persuade me (or, I think, any fair observer) that the dozens of other cases I gave are all fabrications.

Not that you need to, since, AFAICT, you are not claiming that no Jew at all has ever converted (correct me if I am wrong). And of course, I’m not claiming that no person has ever falsely pretended to be of Jewish descent for purposes of evangelizing Jews. I’ve never seen or heard of it, but I’m sure it’s happened somewhere.

Instead, I’m asking you to give me some evidence for the claim that the majority – or even a large fraction – of the thousands of people that describe themselves as “converted” or “messianic” Jews are in fact lying about their ancestry. One fishy sentence out of a hundred stories is scarcely sufficient.
Are there accounts of one of these posers losing a wallet or a letter from his mother, accidentally revealing that he’s actually Italian? Someone investigating that obnoxious new guy at temple and revealing that he’s really not of Jewish ancestry? If the people (or even many of them) at Jews for Jesus are all fakes, then there have been thousands of them over many years – has none of them felt guilty and come clean about how he was only pretending to be Jewish? Any journalists or sociologists studying this widespread phenomenon? Any support at all?

493

There is no necessity to do so.

The thesis here is that these groups are essentially fraudulent attempts to convert Jews by deception. The fact that they are, demonstratable, attempting even one such deception (posted publicly as a ‘testimonial’) tends to support the thesis. It also demonstrates that whoever runs this website hasn’t a clue about Judaism or growing up Jewish, supporting the notion that it is mostly an “ethnic Christian” undertaking. The other testimonials are equally false-sounding, but time and interest disincline me from specifically debunking 'em one by one.

No doubt these groups do “bag” many Jews, it is too much to expect that their tactics don’t work - though I tend to assume they, like most missionaries, are mostly doing it for their own benefit and gratification.

Sorry, that’s not how evidence works. If you make the claim that such “Jews” are all, or even almost all, “ethnic Jews”, it is sort of up to you to prove it. You have attempted to do so by posting links containing testimonials, at least some of which are patently fraudulent on their face - so much so that any Jew reading 'em would know they were.

It is sort of like Finn’s analogy of someone touting a penis enlarging pill. They post their ads through multiple websites, containing lots of testimonials. A cursory look demonsrates that at least some of the testimonials are fake. Is it really necessary to examine each and every testimonial on every website, to “prove” that the people behind the penis-enlarging scheme are fraudsters?

I have no doubt that these groups do convert Jews, That is their purpose, after all. But they are certainly not run by Jews.

Take the biggest one - Jews for Jesus. It is funded by Christian churches, to the tune of $10 milion. Its leader, the executive director, was born Christian. Its employees are not allowed to marry non-Christians.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/a_tenuous_claim_as_a_jew_for_jesus_20060331

494

Of course I have cites. I’ll note, of course, that the cite I did provide about how actually runs “Jews” for Jesus, you first said you didn’t know the location of, and then when I pointed it out, you ignored it and handwaved it away. I also notice that you’ve very pointedly ignored all of the reasoning that I just laid out for you. But, okay.
This is a very good cite.
This is too.

Wrong. He showed that the content of one of your links was very obviously either by someone pretending to be a Jew (most likely) or a Jew who was so clueless as to honestly think that Jews were the majority in his country. That strains credulity far, far past the breaking point. Rather obviously, the fact that that, coupled with your fallacious reasoning, isn’t enough to persuade you… that speaks much more strongly to the nature of your argument than how a rational analysis of the “Messianic Jew” movement should be conducted.

See the cites above. We’re also probably not going to spend time proving that Joe Smith from 222 Cherrywood Lane in Akron Ohio isn’t really a satisfied customer of Penis Enhuger Plus. The burden of proof is on you. You haven’t even begun to fulfill it.

How many of them have felt guilty about using deceit and dishonesty to trick Jews into converting, and come clean on that count? Got many cases of that, or are you being scrupulously selective in picking your parameters? Again, of course they trick some Jews into converting, that’s their whole purpose and they exclusively prey on Jews in the first place. But that’s a far cry from proving that the actual membership, let alone the leadership which actually sets policy and makes the decisions for these “Messianic Jewish” groups are actually ethnic Jews.

495

That’s not my thesis; I have already stipulated that some of these groups may well be dishonest, horrible people. That isn’t the issue.

Fine enough, but if you decline to fight my ignorance by showing why I shouldn’t believe them, you can’t very well fault me if I stay ignorant. You’ve shown me one fishy line from literally dozens of stories, and I’m supposed to ignore all of them – and my personal experience – based on that one line? Sorry, no.

Is this a concession of my point? I can’t tell.

Again – I’m questioning the claim that most of the people claiming to be “converted Jews” are, in fact, *not *converted Jews (or ex-Jews, or Apostates, or whatever you prefer) but persons fabricating their personal histories. That’s the claim that people seem to be making here, and I am asking for support for that claim.

***That’s the sum total of what I’m asking about. Nothing else. ***

Uh, no. Firstly, I was responding to a claim made by others, asking for their cites. Go back and look.

Secondly, what possible evidence could I provide? Thousands of birth certificates?

I’ve given you testimonials from multiple sources. I’ve given you the names of two individuals that I have known personally who, if they are lying about their heritage, are deceiving pretty much everyone in their lives. I’ll give you the heavily-footnoted Wikipedia article, which in discussing the issue of “Messianic Judaism” including Jewish criticisms of it, never once even suggests that these people are hoaxers.

What evidence can I give for the proposition that thousands of people are *not *lying? And what evidence will you give for the proposition that they are?

Except that they are not mere internet testimonials. Again – I HAVE MET THEM PERSONALLY. I have been in houses. In one case, I was invited to attend a passover seder in a messianic house. In another I was in the room listening to a strained conversation between Jewish and Messianic Jewish relatives. These are not “internet rumors” – they are a guy I played touch football with, a girl I wanted to date (and alas, had no shot with because she would only go out with Messianic Jewish guys) and a professor I studied under. If I wanted to meet more, I could go to the congregation that Google tells me is 8 minutes from my house. If I understand the claims being made in this thread, should I go to their service this Saturday at 10 am, I would not find a bunch of ex-Jews who believe in Jesus, but instead a bunch of people pretending.

That’s a hell of claim. And all you have to support it is “this one line on that one website looks bogus to me.”

Again, this is all irrelevant. The president of “Jews of Jesus” might be a Chinese Puppy-raper. It makes no difference to the question I’ve asked.

**
Finn**, I don’t have time to address you post seperately – I think I’ve covered it all above.

496

20 per cent of congregants in Messianic organizations (at best) were Jewish?! so says a Jew for Jesus

furt, I did cite plenty suggesting that your claim was unlikely. You just chose not to ‘engage’:

  1. Jews have low conversion rates
  2. The ones who are most likely to convert are the ones who did not grow up in a Jewish household (they were not raised Jewish or were raised with little religious affiliation beyond the appreciation of good NY bagel)
  3. I also gave some basic soc and psych principles that would make what you are saying highly unlikely
  4. Your misuse of the word “ethnic Jew” - to him, all Christians are ethnic Jews.
  5. The Jews for Jesus movement is based on deceit.

but whatever. I guess if you want to tell me that little green martians have been implanted in my brain, that’s your prerogative. People have been false claims about Jews for centuries.

None of us here are part of some international neoZionist conspiracy designed to Hate on the Christian Man. We have no reason to lie. Just fightin’ the ignorance, sir.

I hope you at least give what we say some thought.

Links to stuff in my post:
Messianic Jews are not part of the Jewish religious group and their ways are fradulent
Jews have low conversion rates
When people claim some “Jewish ancestry” based on a ridiculous notion of being half Jew, part Jew, whatever, you forget that we’ve been through this already
Number of Jews actually converting to this movement seems pretty low
In order for your claim to be true, then your Christian friends would have to come from only half of the current Jewish population in America, since the other half aren’t eligible to meet your claims. That further narrows your potential pool of eligible applicants in your story, but again, the religious Jew (even lower - 1 out of 3) is unlikely to convert. This helps explain why claiming to be ‘of Jewish origin’ and another religious group arises skepticism
Maybe half of Messianic Jews are of Jewishlineage says a person who is a Jew turned Christian! (Same link)

Even Jews for Jesus says they don’t have as many Jews in their movement as is thought HUGE margin of error there:

Finally, we are telling you what makes a person a Jew and what Jewish culture is but you seem to ignore that in favor of some other group’s claim on what makes a Jew and what Jewish culture is and what our history is about. Why? If J4J says that Person X is Jewish based on a male Jewish grandparent and even though they have not been brought up in the Jewish ways or are consider Jess, they are still Jewsand no one in the Jewish world accepts that , how can you claim these stories are ‘true’?
I suppose if you want to say All Dalamations are Jews, you could, but that doesn’t make it true.

497

Add: Its not that your friends were or weren’t raised Jewish. It’s not even so much that the people you cited may or may not be halahcically Jewish.

**
It’s the fact that a “synagogue” in which 100 per cent of its members are Christians and 80 per cent of them have no ties to Judaism is a church.**

Period.

So yes, I stand by my claim. Plenty of “Messianic Jews” were never Jews to begin with.

I was pretty cautious that one, but Finn and everyone else just blew me out of the water. It’s not “plenty”. It’s most.

498

Yes, it is. With groups whose very MO is dishoensty and deception, to take their claims at face value is improper. To then attempt to shift the burden of proof and demand that others prove a negative for a claim whose only proof is the Fallacy of Anecdote? That’s simply not at all logically consistent.

No. He showed you how one “testimonial” is obviously fake. He has pointed out that others do not pass the smell test. Several of us have pointed out that we are also dealing with organizations that operate via deception, and so you need to provide proof that their claims are correct, as the simple fact that they have made them is not proof of anything but that they have made certain claims. It has also been pointed out that your fallacious reasoning is not compelling, and your reliance on fallacy and refusal to be persuaded is not significant as a rebuttal.

No. We have pointed out, in detail, that of course 100% of their converts will be ex-Jews, as they only target Jews in the first place, but that converts =/= all members. What we have also pointed out is that these organizations admit, in their own words (when they’re not talking to Jews), that they are Christian organizations. This raises the question as to who is actually leading and staffing these organizations, as opposed to the Jews they convert. We have also been given no figures, at all, for the number of converts they claim let alone the numbers they can prove, and all you have offered is the Fallacy of Anecdote, several online testimonials… one of which, at the very least, is verifiably false and which you persist in mis-describing as having 'only one objectionable line.

No. People have pointed out that you are not supporting your claim and that you are attempting to shift the burden of proof into proving a negative.

In other words, you have no proof to support your claim other than the Fallacy of Anecdote and the Fallacy of Shifting the Burden of proof, and you admit that the burden you have shifted, and the negative you have asked us to prove, is nearly impossible in your view.

At least one of the testimonials is an obvious fake. For some reason you refuse to admit even that much.
As for you knowing people, that couldn’t be a more obvious Fallacy of Anecdote if you tried to come up with one. Unless, I suppose, it involved Volvos. Even if we were to take at face value that your local “Messianic Jewish” congregation were all on the level, that would prove nothing about other similar groups.

You have, however, ignored (multiple times) the fact that I already provided a cite showing that JfJ are known and proven liars who engage in deception in order to trick Jews into converting. In fact, in response to your claim that we must find some of them who have lied about their heritage and then apologized, I pointed out that we have all of them who have lied in order to convert Jews and none have apologized, and it is more than odd that you’d expect them to apologize for other lies.
You ignored that too.

No, you have not.

499

Finn, I’ve already shown him to be wrong. Can I have the mantle of HRH Defender of All Jewry from you now? :wink:

500

I’m afraid that I am under contract to both the Illuminati and the Mossad “until the last gentile is ritually sacrificed and their blood used to make mortar and their bones used to make the bricks that will be used to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount.”
As such, I am afraid I must refuse.