Most of the membership of such groups are not, in fact “converted Jews” at all. This isn’t my claim - it is simply a fact. Cite: see page 247 of Evangelizing the chosen people: missions to the Jews in America, 1880-2000:
The “testimonials” claiming to be from “converted Jews” are, in at least some cases, simply fraudulent. That much, I’ve proved.
These groups are funded by Christian churches, and their leadership is, in the case of Jews for Jesus, in the hands of an “ethnic Christian”.
None of which prevents you from having met actual, live converts (which no-one has claimed don’t exist). What it does, is goes to show that these are not “Jewish” congregations at all - they are Christian congregations which imitate or mimic some aspects of Judaism, purely for the purpose of converting Jews - and which ironically enough attract more Christians than “ethnic Jews”.
Man. I guess I was asking for it by posting in a thread with an inflammatory title, and I probably should have made it clear my question had nothing to do with the rest of the thread, but I’ve never seen this much vitriol unleashed for daring to ask for a cite.
But finally, at last we do have some, and I thank you. I am now persuaded by the evidence that a large percentage of people attending Messianic Jewish congregations – probably the majority – are not, in fact, ethnically Jewish. I did not know this previously. I have been given cites and I have been informed.
See how easy that was? No need to be nasty or imply anti-semitism or any of that. Facts and logic work on me. Angry screaming not so much.
Unfortunately, while ya’ll have given me some useful information, I already knew that there were some gentiles that hung out with Messianic Christian groups. I’ve met some of them (which I mentioned in one of my first posts). I did not know they made up that much of the congregations, and for making me aware of that, again I thank you.
Except here’s the thing: that wasn’t what I was asking. A gentile who goes to a Messianic Jewish meeting, or gives them money – or even sits on a board of a Messianic Jewish organization – is not necessarily claiming that he personally has any claim to Jewish ancestry. I’m well aware that not everyone attending a Messianic Jewish service has any connection to Judaism at all – I’m aware of it because, as mentioned, I’ve done it. And at no point did I ever make any false claims about my ethnic heritage.
If I’d succeded in getting Messianic Jewish Girl to go out with and marry me, and she insisted that we go to a Messianic Jewish church, I might go every week. And sitting next to me might be Crazy Larry, also with no ethnic Jewish heritage, but attending because he likes it more than the churches he grew up in. Again, Larry and I both freely acknowledge we are 100% gentile.
So while the fact that most Messianic Jewish congregations have a such a high percentage of ethnic gentiles is somewhat surprising to me, it doesn’t address the question I have been asking for the last day.
To repeat:
That’s it. I don’t know how to be clearer.
And Finn, since you’re trying to shift the burden to me and ask me to prove a negative, I ask again, sincerely: What possible evidence could I provide to indicate that most people making the claim of Jewish ethnicity are not lying? That’s not a rhetorical question.
Again, this is the kind of evidence that would begin to falsify my position.
Accounts of one of these posers accidentally revealing that he’s actually not of Jewish ancestry
Someone investigating that obnoxious new guy at temple and revealing that he’s really not of Jewish ancestry
Accounts of frauds coming clean about how he was only pretending to be Jewish
Any journalists or sociologists studying this widespread phenomenon
AFAICT, you’re saying this kind of impersonation is common, but after sincerely looking online, I don’t see any sign of it. Can you even give me a few anecdotes?
Pointing out that your argument is based on logical fallacies is hardly beyond the pale. The whole point is that you did not require a cite to prove a negative, as, at best, the default assumption should have been that you couldn’t estimate the truth value of certain claims… and given the fact that they come from known liars, that should have meant that the burden of proof was even more strongly against them.
You should also be able to understand why “Messianic Jewish” organizations are so offensive to actual Jews. And even if you can’t, you should be able to understand that they are, and act accordingly.
The point is, again, that you don’t need a reason to doubt their claims, you need a reason to believe them. Especially since, at best, we’re dealing with organizations that are engaged in deception (there’s a reason that they call themselves “Messianic Jewish Temples” and not “Christian congregations that would like to invite some Jews to come on by and hear the Gospel.” And, also as pointed out, at least one of the “testimonials” is fraudulent. Why assume, as a default, that the others aren’t (even those that also seem ‘off’)?
As Malthus cited, for example, Brickner claims to be a"fifth-generational Jewish believer in Jesus." This claim is so laughably absurd that it only passes muster among those who want to be convinced. Jews simply do not maintain their identity if, for a century+, they worship Jesus as Christ, marry Christians, and raise their children to worship Jesus. It’s in the realm of science fiction.
You’re the one who’s trying to shift the burden and ask people to prove a negative. That’s what “let’s assume these are true, and prove that they are not” means. I’m pointing out that you’re attempting to shift the burden of proof and asking others to prove a negative. In the absence of a reason to come to a conclusion, the proper stance is that the situation is indeterminate. When dealing with organizations that are known liars, generally the null hypothesis is that their claims are to be taken as fictional unless the null hypothesis is falsified.
Again, before I answer, I’d like to point out that you apparently view this as nearly impossible, but you’re demanding that sans proof for your claims that they’re being honest, others provide that nearly-unreachable level of proof to show that they aren’t being accurate.
That being said, you can, like they did with Brickner, simply ask him in order to see if their story is at all credible. In any case, you treat the testimony of people who you’re able to interact with and whose emotional cues you can judge (and whose stories you can directly check) differently from functionally anonymous internet claims.
First…no one here is screaming. Rolling eyes? Maybe. But we are addressing your points.
Second. If you think your claims of Jews being a race and having some weird psychic genetic connection to eachother isn’t a little bit sketchy…I can’t help you. That’s how you feel. I personally that that is an antisemitic viewpoint (b/c it fits the definition), but that’s one of your very many views about 10,000 different things in life. No one is calling you a virulent antisemitic.
I don’t agree with Democrats on inheritance taxes, but that does not make me a Republican.
Easy on the smokescreens. If you do not want to address what I said, then don’t address it. Easy.
If you dismiss it not once but twice, then it does appear as though you are invalidating everything I say and appear to have xyz opinions about Jews and race. That’s how it looks. You don’t have to agree with my opinion. But don’t state that I was making erroneous claims unless you please back it up. It makes me look dishonest. We don’t call people liars here. Thanks. (:
No one is screaming.
FINALLY:
I’m a registered Democrat. I have been since my 18th birthday.
I keep telling Republicans I am voting for them and I hang out with them all the time.
I’m not really outwardly lying about affiliation with Democrats…I’m just indirectly lying. Power of suggestion.
or, you could argue:
There’s an organization that is designed to defraud people.
I don’t work for them, but I volunteer all the time. I look like one of those people they’re trying to defraud.
I’m indirectly supporting an organization that defrauds people by knowingly being a pawn.
or, you could argue:
Most Messianic Jews are Christians. That’s what we said and dems de fax. They claim to go to a synagogue, but that is a lie. Suggesting that you go to a synagogue is implying you are Jewish. Again. Indirect lie.
Some of us have seen people pass themselves off as Messianic Jews.
It’s been proven that tactics used to convert Jews are to disguise yourself as a Jew at first.
Claiming to be part of something you’re not is a lie.
Sorry, I find assuming that all people are lying until they prove otherwise a difficult way to go through life. And as I’ve said, we’re not talking about “organizations,” we’re talking about actual people, several of whom I know personally. Living humans whose houses I’ve been to, whose families I’ve met and one of whom I recently defriended on Facebook because of all the damn Farmville requests. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have more evidence of their Jewish ancestry than I do of yours.
Now if you want me to believe that my personal experience with the Messianic Jewish community is far from the ordinary, and that in fact most of the people claiming Jewish lineage are straight-up faking the whole damn thing, I need more than assertions.
I meant to mention this earlier. This does seem to be a guy fuzzing the edges a bit. He was raised as a Jew, and was a Jew under Reform Judaism, but under Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, he wouldn’t be. So we’ll count that as one strike.
It seems unlikely to me, too. Of course, the girl I knew in college was born to a Messianic Jewish mother (and father), married a MJ guy, and has now has given birth to kids, so there’s that.
No, I’m asking you to prove a positive. A few more cases like Brickner would be helpful. Even better would be some credible source that mentions this supposedly widespread phenomena.
If someone claims that they are a faith healer, I am skeptical because I have never seen one personally, and because many faith healers have been shown to be phonies.
If someone claims that they are or were a Satanist, I am skeptical because I have never met one personally, and many claims of satanism have been shown to be false. (e.g.)
If someone claims that they are a Jewish convert to Christianity, I am *not *skeptical because I have have seen several personally, and as far as I know there have not been large numbers of them shown to be phonies.
If you know otherwise, show me. Don’t tell, show.
Again – I have been to their houses. I ate their food. I met their relatives. Shit, I listened to household arguments about their conversion. Was the whole thing some sort of staged act … and if so, for whose benefit? They were Gentiles pretending to be Jewish converts, while their relatives (presumably also Gentiles) were pretending to be Jewish non-converts … why, exactly? Was it all some sort of elaborate performance art for my benefit?
Sorry, there is zero chance you’ll convince me that my college freinds were phonies; which is fine because I’m not asking you to.
I’m asking you to give evidence that it is common for other people – anyone, anywhere, anytime – to feign Judaism for purposes of prostelyzation. I looked earlier and found nothing, but since you’re so confident, I’m asking you for your source of knowledge. Have you, personally, ever met someone who was pretending to have Jewish ancestry in order to convert people? Has anyone you know ever met such a person?
I have said nothing of the kind. Zilch, zero. You’re either confusing me with someone else or else making things up. I didn’t say it, don’t think it, and find it offensive.
Oh come on. What I just said, and what you just quoted and directly responded to, was:
Do you honestly not see a difference between “all people” and “organizations that are engaged in deception”? Would you, for instance, accept a claim from The Discovery Institute about evolution without proof? We are talking about organizations. I’ve drawn a clear distinction between the published effectively-anonymous “testimonies” that are posted by those organizations online, and people who you can meet in person and talk to.
This is not an “assertion”. This is the substance of the Fallacy of Anecdote.
Italics doesn’t make it true. Your claim is that their statements, including the effectively-anonymous online claims you’ve provided, should be taken at face value. And you’re demanding that people prove a negative by showing otherwise.
Except the organizations are systemically and deliberately dishonest and deceitful, and Malthus has already pointed out that one of the “testimonies” is a rather blatant fiction. Others ping real Jews’ bullshit dectors for a variety of reasons.
Nobody, at all, has claimed that there are no Jews who were converted by the “Messianic Jews” movement. We’re not saying that none of them exist. Because, obviously, 100% of their converts will be Jewish, because they only convert Jews.
One of the cites that you, yourself, provided featured a Christian pretending to be a “Reformed” Jew who thought that Jews were the majority religion in his country, evidently up to the point where he entered high school. *
Another example, Brickner refers to his group as “Messianic Jews” when he’s trying to convert Jews, but what does he refer to them as when he’s addressing Christians?
An Orthodox Jew has never heard of Tikun Olam? He isn’t aware of God’s covenant with the Jewish people, or that theologically being Jewish is not “some accident of nature” but that we have been Chosen to accept the burden of The Law?
An Orthodox Jew wouldn’t know that all the “prophecies that seem to point to Jesus” are, uniformly, mistranslated, massaged within an inch of their lives, or taken wildly out of context? An Orthodox Jew is, in fact, totally ignorant of what being the Moshiach actually means in Jewish theology?
At best, there’s something extremely fishy going on.
At best.
This is my original post that you have been arguing about for the last 24 hours…all of which as proven to be true.
that was in response to you:
= myth that the ‘synagogue’ down the street is a group where ‘Jews’ worship ‘Jesus’
= that’s pretty much been hammered out…
= ok. you have some misconceptions. i mean, i just addressed all those things on that page, but I can repeat myself.
Gee, you think it would’ve died there.
I am really really sorry if you think I am calling you an antisemite. I’m not. That’s a huge thing to say.
I just think you are coming off as having a prejudice that is uncalled for. I can have a prejudice that falls under the category of ‘racism’ but that doesn’t make me racist by default. I am going to explain why because I think convos about language is productive to everyone and then I’m done because this is is not a pit thread.
Ethnic Jew = usually used to describe someone born of a Jewish mother but not affiliated in any way.
No one calls a convert to Christianity an ethnic Jew on a continual basis. Possibly “ethnic by birth” or “Hebrew Christian” in Israel, but if we do say “ethnic Jew” who converted, that’s not saying that this person is in any way practicing any form of Judaism or are “part of the Tribe”.
Cultural Jew = someone who is part of Jewish culture - not practicing
Religious Jew = someone who practices (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox)
Jew= generic catch-all, but does not include Jews who have converted.
Genetics **isn’**t an automatic disqualification or qualification.
You said that Jews who are Christians should be calling themselves Jews because of some genetic decree and because they want to – even though it is a slap in the face to us and to 3,000+ years of history. And we say they can’t do that.
You said our ethnicity (which always includes culture) is related to genetics (I have this great great Jewish grandfather…") so people of “Jewish descent” (what’s that? half the world?) are Jews to you.
You came in* here*. Look at the title. We’d totally moved away from that issue and then you made these statements. You didn’t clarify yourself.
We went in rounds with Towers (born Jewish, btw) about how you couldn’t be a Christian Jew. He was arguing as a matter of having conflict with our atheist Jew stance. It was about theology. When that settled, it was perfectly fine until you had to hammer on the same damned question. We’d already addressed Jews who convert!
This thread has been about what makes a Jew Jewish and what makes you not. What makes us a religion and how you can be an atheist Jew. What makes you not a Jew was pretty clearly established. Christianity is an unquestionable definitive line. To claim you’re one of “us” (Jewish) when you’re one of “them” (Christian) is a lie.
I may come off as irritated/arrogant/bratty, but do you see me going into a thread about Muslims and telling me what makes them Muslim?!
In fact, you posted right after me when I said that Messianic judaism was a lie. Your reasoning? “Ethnic Jewish heritage.”
wtf
?
We’d already covered that.
But I re-covered it. I said that’s not a Jewish person. Then I even cited pretty quickly the sociological concepts that backed up what we were saying and you went 14,000 rounds claiming that we needed to prove something when the burden of proof was on yourself.
When I did come up with those cites, you acted as though you weren’t really apologetic at all…more of a sarcastic “GEEEZ. SORREEE.”
It wasn’t just about “asking for a cite”.
And you’re** still arguing** with Finn as I type. Why?
As I was saying:
[/QUOTE]
This was clarified on page 1 and probably more in the thread, but there is no such thing as a partial Jew. So I explained that right away and you tried to argue with me! When it’s been established by all Jews that that you’re wrong. We were informing you. No name calling. No yelling. Just mistaken.
:smack:
bunch of old people spinning dreidels and thinking about the holocaust, ah, the imagery
Are you trying to redefine our identity or something? You first said you knew some “partial ethnic Jews” who were Christians. Then you drop partial and just say “ethnic”. Does this mean you think that a great grandson of a Jewish man is a Jew? We said there’s no such thing. So you think that it’s OK for them to say so? Why?
Cause we’ve done this one already. It *looks *like you are equating some genetics with Jewish identity: That only matters when it comes to who your mom is. I explained that. Very. Carefully.
I know other people are using that term, but this post made me go ?! because you conflate ethnicity with genetics.
And this is what I heard/felt you say/inferred after we’d explained it to you: “Oh, okay, these Jewish people are saying what Judaism means in an ethnic sense, a religious sense, and that it’s not a race at all and I’ve been told you can’t claim Judaism and Christianity at the same time because that makes you not Jewish and that J4J is a propaganda machine, but…well…even though there are a lot of links in this thread, I’ll just challenge these people.”
Even if you didn’t mean to hint that it was a matter of clear-cut genetics, you tried to redefine us. Dude, you don’t get a vote.
Finn even said this group was largely “not Jewish by ethnicity”. That includes the great grandson of a Jew like the group’s founder and the people who have no association who affiliate with the group. (90 per cent)
When a Jew converts, he deflects. It doesn’t matter. That J4J is mostly Gentile. 100 per cent of them are Christians.
They are not part of this thing we call Judaism anymore. Period. So when you are looking at something that is blurry and has a lot of rules, please don’t put your own definitions that no one agrees with onto something. You look likeyou are arguing our positions because we are not Christians who fit your idea of Who is A Jew.
That was my point of contention. Tis all.
They don’t.
Malthus corrects you and you are still argue.
If 13 million people say, “This is our group. Here are some basic rules: You can’t Convert. You aren’t a rabbi if you convert. Your synagogue is not a synagogue if it’s a church. The end.” Why are you challenging that?
:smack: Even if 100 per cent of them were born of a Jewish mother, that doesn’t make them Jewish. It doesn’t mean we have to accept their “ties” to “us”.
I told you that you can’t be part of an ethnic group without following the general criteria of that group. I conclude that you may have some weird ideas about Judaism and race because you are dismissive of our definition of our* ethnic *Tribe.
You could’ve corrected me. I could’ve misunderstood you. But you didn’t.
I clarify later that I’m saying you have a misguided view. I didn’t make judgement on you as a person. But your view echoes an antisemitic one.
You could’ve just said, “Oh, no, you misunderstood me” when I explained why. Instead, you insinuated that I lied and continued to argue with Finn et al. about a position of yours that is different from your original.
:smack:
These people are not Jewish. If they had showed up to a shul saying, hey, my *grandmother on my mother’s side is Jewish *and I want to be part of this" that’s cool because that’s OK according to Jewish law.
But just claiming to be a Jewish Christian? Lie.
imho, it is not OK for people to push your definitions of a group on to that group. The practice of doing that is called “ethnocentric-ism”. It means you’re looking at us through your lens and not ours and trying to make us adopt to your view.
If you have genuine questions or if you want to debate something, ok, but if you invalidate me then I probably won’t think you have virtuous motives.
This is not a pit thread. I am sooo not pitting you. But this thread has actually been largely productive and it was sad to think whatever the good stuff that came out of it all of the sudden didn’t mean anything because we had to hit the reset button.
I’m respectfully asking that you just please watch your language.
I just fell over and I was already laying down.
**
Messianic Jew-**
Any former JEW BY JEWISH LAW that converts to Christianity (super tiny per cent!)
any Christian who wants to make that claim
Is a Messianic Jew a Jew?
A: No.
**
What is he?**
A: A Christian.
**
Why do they call themselves Jews?**
A: Because they either suffer a major identity crisis or want to be deceitful.
What’s an ethnic Gentile?
Dude, I have no idea.
What group of people recognizes these converts as Jews?
Sigh. Dude, you guys knocked one line in one guy’s story. You keep saying that they’re all lies, but it hasn’t been until your second post above that you’ve started actually showing why you think they’re BS.
Some of the things you’re picking on seem arguable to me, but the thing about Chelm does make me a bit dubious about that guy’s story. And the other guy is clearly a fabulist, though he seems more like a general catch-all fabricator-for-attention than someone engaged in a conspiracy. Nevertheless, this is the kind of evidence that impresses me. If you have more - especially anything that suggests that this kind of thing is in fact common - I’d like to see it.
I am heading out of town and won’t be back until Sunday at the earliest. In the meantime, in post #507, I quote CitizenPained misrepresenting me for purposes of calling me an anti-semite. I’d like to know if you agree with him.
I have a question a bit related to the OP.
Even though it doesnt appear that the tendencies in some Jews to want to get in a relationship with another Jew rather than a Gentile is as massive as what the OP made it out to be, the behavior does exist. I thought that even for Orthodox Jews, the prime question of assessing if someone is Jewish or not is that the mother be Jewish.
In that case, why would Jews who think that it is really important that their numbers dont decrease be concerned over Jewish girls marrying or having kids with Gentiles? Shouldnt thye be concerned only about male Jews doing that, and not females? After all, in a mixed Jewish-Gentile couple, if it’s the mother that’s Jewish, ultimately the kids will be Jewish. Yet, on stories related to that subject (like that letter from Orthodox rabbis back in December in Israel), the focus seems far more on female Jews marrying outside of the faith than on males doing so.
So?
Also, another question:
if the mother thing is that important, is there some kind of reverse China syndrome?
That is the Chinese (but also the Indians I hear. And come to that, it is quite frequent in a lot of other places as well) far prefer to have male kids rather than female ones. So, with the concern over the Jewishness of the mother necessary to transmit the status (cant think of a better word there), is there some kind of similar behavior among some Jews, but this time focusing on having girls instead of boys?
The vast majority of Jews that I can say I know well are North African Jews, and there’s really no difference on that point with North Africans in general, boy is usually prefered. But logically, it should be the reverse, if there was to be any preference. Does that exist in some Jewish communities?
Your reliance on this claim is odd. It’s been explained to you over, and over, and over that the person who wrote that is rather obviously not a Jew. Your insistence on reducing that to vague disagreement about “one line” does nobody any service.
But apparently no more so, and perhaps less so, than any other self identified sociocultural group’s tendency to select from within that group. Half the time American Jews marry outside that group. What’s the rate for Christians? For Muslims? For Hindus? Less? More?
Not sure it is but there is good reason why it might be if it is - the Jews by that definition so produced are set up to be non-righteous by the Orthodox criteria: Jews not living up to the standards of following the rules. Children born of Jewish fathers to non-Jewish mothers OTOH can be righteous Gentiles.
As to the preference for females … I don’t think so.
That’s strange, a Jewish father would be more apt at providing a proper Jewish education in a Jewish/Gentile couple than a Jewish mother would? Seems a bit contradictory with establishing matrilineal Jewishness.
Oddly, after all this thread, Zombie seems not to understand the point that children born of Jewish women in mixed marriages will be Jews but probably not follow the commandments, while children born of Jewish fathers will generally be considered gentiles.
