Yes, Messianic Jews claim Jesus is the Messiah. But they also claim Jesus was God. Jews who believe a particular person or another is the Messiah don’t believe that person is deified, any more than Muslims believe Mohammad was God.
It seems to me that if you believe Jesus was God incarnate, you are a Christian, and this belief means you cannot be a Jew or a Muslim. It is in fact the definition of being a Christian. You can be Jew or Muslim who thinks Jesus was built, and was very well programmed. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, that doesn’t make them Christians, because they don’t believe Jesus was divine.
Allah is just the Arabic word for “God”. Christians who speak Arabic use the word “Allah” to refer to God, just like Christians who speak French use the word “Dieu” and Germans use “Gott”. So there’s nothing contradictory about a Christian who worships Allah, since that just means worshiping God.
The parallel isn’t Allah vs God, would be a group that professes to be Christian, yet teaches that Jesus was a human prophet and not divine, and also that Mohammad was a prophet, and that the Koran was divinely inspired. Even a group that believed that Mohammad was a genuine prophet and the Koran was divinely inspired, but that Jesus was divine would count as real Christians. How that would work I don’t know, since I believe the Koran explicitly denies the divinity of Jesus.
It seems to me, being neither a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian, that one could be both Jewish and Muslim without contradiction, that is, you could be a Jew who believes Mohammad was a prophet. But you can’t be a Muslim and a Christian, or a Jew and a Christian at the same time.
Again, it isn’t the matter of their theology - as far as I’m concerned, all theology is much of a muchness - as of the intentions of those in charge of the group.
Scientology is a wierd cult, not because of what the religion allegedly believes, but because of how they behave - they use methods that are often criminal in pursuit of their aims, which appear to be to amass cash.
Similarly with Jews for Jesus and their ilk - though unlike Scientologists they are doing, as far as I know, nothing criminal or cult-like, they are in effect using the label of “being Jews” as a means of conversion of actual Jews.
They are using the “Jew” label as a means to an end, and not as an end unto itself. That’s the distinction, in a nutshell.
Well, I’m not really equipped or prepared to debate the intricacies of Christian theology. My point, however, is that the Jewish way of doing things doesn’t have to jibe with how Christianity self-regulates, or how we as outsiders might categorize Christians. Jewish tribal status may or may not be *fair, logical, or in accord with how other religions do it, but it’s pretty much consistent across all Jewish sects. *If you’re a Christian, you’re out of the tribe. That’s, literally, probably the only thing that all the Jewish sects agree with.
Now, again, this may be nonsensical to a gentile, but that’s okay too.
Imagine, if you will, that there is a tribe in Hypothetica that decides that membership is based on a set of arcane rules, any and all of which can be overruled by a rough consensus of the membership, in which case the offender is stripped of all tribal identity and exiled. It doesn’t matter if the other local tribes agree to this system. It doesn’t matter if the other local tribes have different ways of doing things. It doesn’t matter if the other local tribes still think that an exiled member of the first tribe still counts as its member (but it does present pragmatic problems). It doesn’t matter if the other local tribes thinks that this is the silliest thing they’ve ever heard. Because once the tribe decides that someone’s out, they’re no longer given the status of a member of the tribe by the membership of the tribe, and that’s really all there is to it.
And Malthus has the right of it. Scientology isn’t distasteful because of its religious beliefs. After all, they’re not, really, any nuttier than any other religious beliefs that we’ve got. They’re abhorrent because of how they conduct themselves. Likewise, “Messianic Jewish” organizations aren’t repugnant because they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and not even that they aim at converting people. They are, to begin with, somewhat objectionable because they target their aims exclusively at Jews and Jews have had a millenium+ long history of dealing with conversion attempts from Christians ranging from mildly disgusting to outright genocidal. They are even more objectionable when you consider the fact that their member base is composed of a supermajority of gentiles, their leadership/planning is largely done by gentiles, they self-identify as Christians when they’re not trying to deceive Jews, and their theological endeavors are based on deception and distortion rather than an honest attempt to convert Jews. It’s the difference between “Hello, we are followers of Jesus and we think Christianity is awesome. We’d like to tell you a little bit more about it.” and “Hi, we’re, um, Jews. Yah… that’s it. We’re Jews. We also just happen to follow Jesus, but that’s totally cool, we’re fully compatible with Judaism and we look at you as our theological brethren (but we’d advise our children not to marry Jews because your theology is fundamentally incompatible with ours). So, can I put you on our mailing list?”
That “Messianic Jewish” groups engage in some scummy practices, like targeting the elderly and lonely children away from home at college for the first time, that just adds to the ick factor. “Messianic Jews” are Christians. And there’s nothing wrong with that, or with wanting to convert people to Christianity. It’s the dishonesty inherent in their tactics and the disgusting methods they employ that earn them the pretty much unified opposition of the Jewish community. And really, think about that. Jews agree on virtually nothing, two-Jews-three-opinions and so on, but the one thing that we’re pretty much all in accord with is that Christians cannot be Jews.
Yes. Prophet is not the same as “Human god was sacrificed for our sins.” Human sacrifice is not what Isaiah was talking about, and no man is allowed to call himself God.
The definition of *Jew *excludes you from Christianity. That’s why they’re not Jewish. Two totally separate religions. Check out the history of the last 2,000 years.
Also, if you’re really interested, you could just read the thread for your answer.
It’s a separate religion. Christians don’t even teach the Torah the way we are taught it.
Messianic Jews believe in Jesus Christ.
uh, Jews don’t. It’s kind of a deal-breaker. If you want to try to muddle religions that much, then I guess we are all MusCrisJewBuTaoists. Kumbaya, my lord…
I really don’t care how other religions operate. As long as they aren’t messing with mine.
I said Mormons were Mormons. Every Mormon I know has classified himself as such. That may be a distant branch from Christianity, but I’ve never thought about Mormonism outside of Big Love. I don’t care what you call them. I never said it was wrong for Christians to poo hoo other Jesus believers. There was no ‘judgment by proxy’.
I just call 'em Mormons. Pretty sure I was clear on that. I’m not a sanctimonious asshole who thinks she should push her ideas onto another religion. It does appear that Mormonism is an odd branch of Christianity, but I don’t give a damn.
Messianic jews are Christians. They believe in sin, hell, heaven, a dead and risen ‘messiah’, and a whole host of things we don’t. We don’t even worship the same deity. They follow Evangelical Christianity with a dash of Gefilte fish.
How many times do we have to tell you that a kippa a Jew does not make?
Every Episcopalian I’ve know self-identifies as an Episcopalian. Going by your calculus, they’re not Christians? Got news for you, Episcopalians identify as a particular part of Christianity: Episcopalian. We Latter-day Saints identify as a particular type of Christianity: Latter-day Saints. Mormon, when applied to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a nick-name.
We’re not a distant branch; we’re simply one of the non-trinitarian denominations.
That’s your mistake there. Big Love isn’t representative (especially since it’s going on about something Mormons haven’t practiced in over a hundred years).
You’re missing my point. I’m saying that people identify first (usually) with their branch of deism.
Yeah, “Heeb” is a Jew. Israelite is a Biblical Hebrew…Jew. Hebrew is a Jew from pre-Judea. Israeli is someone from Israel. Chabadink is a Jew of the Chabad tradition. Masorti is a conservative Jew in Israel. :smack:
Okay. (: I think I was equating ‘small’ with ‘distant’. Make sense, though.
I know that. I still <3 the show. I also know that the Tudors was a joke and i still ate it up. Sexy entertainment.
Actually, it made me dig up some info on what separates Mormons from Jehovah’s witnesses cause I’m always getting them mixed. My friend in undergrad was a Mormon and I used to tease her about special underwear (from the novel Green, I think). Anyway, she identified as Mormon. That was my point. I don’t care what Romney calls himself.
Christians make their own rules and you all get to work it out amongst yourselves.
It’s interesting that you (1) compare Judaism with Christianity and (2) discuss these two while talking about being in or out of a tribe.
Christianity is not a tribe. Being Greek or Italian is being part of a “tribe” but being Christian is not. Becoming a Muslim doesn’t stop a Greek from being part of the Greek tribe, or stop an Italian from being part of the Italian tribe.
Yes, becoming a Muslim does stop you from being a Christian, since these are two religions and you are switching from one to the other. So, I can see how becoming a Muslim or a Christian can stop you from being a Jew, religion-wise. What’s unusual to non-Jews is the fact that becoming a Christian can stop you from being a Jew, tribe-wise.
I guess Judaism is a tribe where, in order to be part of the tribe, you have to accept and follow the one religion that this tribe follows.
I don’t think many other ethnic/tribal affiliations these days come with a mandatory religion attached. Do you guys know of any others?
We’ve been over and over and over this specific point in this thread many times. You do not have to be religious to be part of the tribe. You can certainly be an atheist, and you can be a non-observant Jew who doesn’t follow any of the rituals at all. What you can not be is a member of another religion that conflicts with Judaism (in the eyes of Jews, not necessarily in the Eyes of Polerius).
So Christianity means you’re exiled from the tribe.
Wait, I thought people were saying that they can be atheist and still be considered religious according to the Jewish religion. Do you disagree with this?
So, let me re-phrase: “Judaism is a tribe where, in order to be part of the tribe, you must not accept any religion outside a specific set of religions”
Are there any other ethnic/tribal affiliations these days that come with a list of religions you can’t follow if you want to be part of that tribe?
No. Not all atheist Jews subscribe to the religion of Judaism. Some do.
Pretty much. I’m not even quite sure on the second bit. I’d be curious, for example, to see how Jewish Buddhists are regarded or how Jewish Taoists are regarded, but without a doubt Christianity places one outside the tribe.
Firstly I would like to thank you for sharing - although I don’t always like what I read from you, it is always thoughtful and well informed.
It is hard for me to get me head around the distinctions being drawn, and what feels like the “wrongness” to the way I think. But hey, that’s ok - it’s not like my approval or concurrence is sought, required or will make any difference.
But I do have a question for you.
So if my mother was Jewish (tribe and faith) by converted to Christianity in order to make my dad happy, she would be “removed” from the tribe - correct so far right?
What then does this do to my Jewish birthright? Is it still there but dormant, or does it die with her?
If my mother got divorced and “renounced” Christianity (but did not reconvert to Judaism) would she once again become a Jew?
Honestly, I’m not sure and I’m not aware of precedent. My guess is that it hasn’t come up often enough as to matter. After all, most children of formerly Jewish mothers who are being raised Christian probably don’t ever seek to return to their Jewish heritage. Same goes for someone leaving Judaism and then renouncing their new faith but still wanting to be counted among the Jews.
I’d be curious to see what cites others could dig up, however.
The heritage itself cannot, but one can leave the traditions/culture by the wayside.
Well, as I said I’m really not sure about descendants of people who were formerly Jewish. But as for conversion, anybody can convert. The traditions just discourage it and rabbis are actually supposed to refuse someone three times in order to make sure that they’re really serious about becoming Jews. But we do accept converts when they’re dead set on it.
You are not giving adequate consideration to the context. In this respect the reason why JfJ are beyond the judaic pale is that it falls in the spectrum of behaviour tending to submerge and overwhelm Judaism. Admittedly it is at the more innocent end of the spectrum, but it still sits there.
Ironically, the most serious contemporary threat to Judaism is diversely embraced amongst its communities: the unwritten rule to support Israel especially when it plans and executes crimes against humanity.
It’s basic political science. We’re a nationality. It’s like a social contract (in a very weird and twisted way :p). Jews in the Diaspora (i.e., outside of Judea) have existed this way over centuries. Israel (the State of) doesn’t influence Judaism in America the way that people think. I am so tired of people saying, “Jews treat Palestinians like crap” or some such. :smack:
** Jews are a “tribe”. **Before ‘Judea’, we were Hebrews, a ‘people’. After Moses, we were lots of tribes all under Abraham, but still a people with no political country. Our laws were kept and enforced for all of those tribes. After awhile, it was decided that people could intermarry, but distinctions were kept. Eventually, the Hebrews overthrew the Caananites and tribes settled and slowly merged together, with the Kingdom of Judah in the south and Israel in the north. Perhaps being a Levite kohen is the last true Hebrew birthright.
Israel wasn’t always united. Israel and Judea were separate once. Some theologians say that destroyed us. Who knows? But all of the Hebrews were still that - Hebrews. Nationality emerged.
Fast forward: After the fall of Israel, and later, the fall of the Kingdom of Judah (Judea) and the expulsion of (most) Jews from the area, we found ourselves a new identity. Homeless. Homeless Judeans. We didn’t stay in one spot or all together, but it’s remarkable that every group of Jews kept the same basic principles of the Covenant. Then the Oral Law was written - the Talmud - and and that become part of our ‘legal’ system. No wonder our literacy rates soared.
Jews have always existed in other countries. Jews have always exercised their law when they could, and even practiced in secret when they were not supposed to. For every time we’ve been kicked out of someplace, we start anew. The strength of Judaism is its law. A law is only valid when followed.
So then emerge Ashkenazim and the Sephardim and the Mizrahi - all Jews. Secret Jews of Spain, secret Jews of south Colorado. All have differing cultures, but the same religion and legal system. Same philosophies.
From an anthro standpoint, these were like the ‘new tribes’ of Israel. Over time, Benjamin and Ephraim became New York and LA. Judah and Zebulon became Sephardic and Mizrahi.
The exiled Judeans became a very splintered nationality in terms of geography, but not religious belief. Some of the old kingdom’s customs were even taken with them.
Sure, some don’t eat corn on Passover and some don’t wear kippot and some are Chabad and some not, but we’re all identifiable. It’s kind of like dialects of a language.
We were Hebrews before a state and after a state and (hopefully) will always be.
We still exist outside of Israel. The rules that we’ve had in the last 2,000 years since the expulsion play on one’s psyche. Just because we have an actual statehood doesn’t negate the fact that there are ‘tribes’ of Jews that band under a Big Tribe called Judaism. Now we’re a collection of tribes living outside a new Israel.
But do you know what members of the Big Tribe are called?
Jewish.
Juden.
Judío.
יְהוּדָה
Juive.
*It’s just another way of saying nation without physical borders. *We have no federal government, but each branch has its own social contract with its members. All of those branches have general agreements with each other. The one unifying Social Contract that exists between Jews is The Covenant.
Over the course of the years - centuries - since the Diaspora, The Covenant has come to mean two things: 1.) A covenant with each other 2.) The Covenant with God. Following another religion breaks both covenants.
The Torah is like our Constitution, and each ‘sect’ interprets it a little differently. Some things, however, are not disputed.
Our rules - our “Constitution” - state that anyone who breaks the Covenant is no longer a member of the Tribe.
We call it ‘apostasy’, but you may think of it as ‘treason’ or ‘act against the state’.
Breaking from Judaism and being Christian is basically treason against your tribe because it threatens their existence. (This sounds harsh, but I’m trying to relate it to political science here.)
If I didn’t like our American government and I hated America, I may be labeled unpatriotic. I’m still an American. If I commit treason and hypothetically get deported to the island of Treasonites, well, I just lost my rights.
Tribe = nation without borders. We have rules. You can’t serve two masters.
A Christian is a Gentile, and that, dear friend, is why “Messianic Jews” aren’t in The Tribe. You can argue against it all you want, but that is a priori knowledge that has 3,000 years to back it up.
I still <3 the show. I also know that the Tudors was a joke and i still ate it up. Sexy entertainment.
My friend in undergrad was a Mormon and I used to tease her about special underwear (from the novel Green, I think). Anyway, she identified as Mormon. That was my point. I don’t care what Romney calls himself.