Why do Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Really? I saw the movie version, and was all old news to me.

Satan’s tricks, I suppose.

As for the OP, two further points to add:

  1. The reason people are making a distinction between “messiah” and “Messiah” is that “messiah” is a Jewish word that basically means “annointed one”; it refers to someone who has been chosen by God to perform a specific task. If I understand the term correctly (which I quite possibly don’t), David was a messiah. Christians, however, act as if “Messiah” is a specific person, rather than a role, and it is a completely unique role. Furthermore, it assumed that “Messiah” and “Son of God” are synomynous.

  2. It is very clear from the OT that any messiah must follow the Law, yet Jesus openly scorned the Law, and blashemed against God. How could a blashemer be God’s annointed one?

I’m sorry. I apparently brought up the issue and then did not make it clear. The reason I made the distinction is because Christians have deified Jesus, and thus the title would be Messiah. Jews, however, do not recognize this, and so messiah is with a lower case m, just like most other titles.

Zev Steinhardt

First of all, the movie sucked, IMHO - too 70’s. If you like contemporary Broadway, this was the father of them all, and now that they’ve updated it, it rocks! (Keep in mind I was no big fan of the show until two days ago, but I do love good Broadway.) Lights, sound, acting - fantastic. I wept.

Esprix, who still believes in the IPU


Ask the Gay Guy!

zev_steinhardt:

Just in case anyone is wondering about why the messiah might have any successors, check out TheRyan’s post of 03-30-2000 10:58 PM, where he correctly explains that

and in this case, the “specific task” happens to be the political leadership, as Zev explained. The task of the messiah which we now await is the reinstitutition of that leadership, and the task of his heir would be to continue that leadership.

BigRed, here’s one to try for fun. Read ONLY what Jesus says–ignore Paul completely. Think of Jesus as another prophet of Judaism. Then see if it looks like he ever claims he is the Messiah or is trying to start a new religion.

I can’t remember where it is, but Jesus said that “not one jot nor tittle of the Law” shuld pass away. IIRC, The tittle is part of the Hebrew alphabet that looks a bit like an apostrophe–very small, as in even very small parts of Judaic Law still apply.

In other words, Jesus was trying toreform Judaism, not start Christianity. I am not saying that this is the (sorry, here it
comes) gospel truth, but if you can see it in that way you would wonder why anyone would be Christian.

Some other time we could debate if Paul wasn’t just an opportunist who perverted Yeshuah ben Yosef’s teachings.

Bucky


Oh, well. We can always make more killbots.

Bucky: yes and no. In many places, he claimed to be the Son of Man, and went to great lengths to say that he was mortal. But in that whole “keys of the kingdom” spiel in Matthew 16:13-17, Jesus is recorded as very clearly claiming to be the Son of God.

A good read for you would be “Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.” It’s thesis is that Jesus believed himself to be the Jewish messiah, but failed, and that Paul created the religion of Christianity (including Jesus’s diefication, etc.) by mixing Judaism with certain Roman pagan religions. (The earliest copies of the gospels are from churches who already believed Paul’s interpretation of Jesus’s life.) He makes a convincing case, although he comes across as a bit too evangelical about it for some tastes.

Your Quadell

OK, here’s why one non-Jew, who was raised Christian, does not believe Jesus was “the Messiah.” I’m not saying my logic is faultless, but this is what I think makes sense:

  1. “Messiah,” while literally “anointed one,” is largely the title of the Davidic line of kings; in other words, “the King of the Jews”–which is what Jesus was executed for being, or claiming to be. As a king, Jesus was not terribly impressive. In fact, I don’t really buy him as a successful king/messiah. I’m not saying that a Christian conception of him as king is impossible, but from a Jewish point of view, he doesn’t look much like one. I got this line of reasoning from my reading of The Mythmaker:Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby, who is Jewish–I’m not sure about everything in that book, though.
    (Also, there is a Christian defense to this argument. There had to be, or the religion couldn’t exist. Maybe you buy that the Jews were wrong about the Messiah. OK.)

  2. The idea that there is a Messiah–let alone a divine Messiah–prophesied in the Jewish Bible puzzles me. Really. I mean where are the prophecies? I don’t see any prophecies. Admittedly, I’m not a great scholar, but the idea that the whole Hebrew/Mosaic/Jewish religion was leading to this point doesn’t occur to me from the text itself.
    (But then, I’ve never read the whole of the Books of Isaiah & Jeremiah–and I can imagine there might be something in there.)

  3. The Jewish conception of Messiah is highly nationalistic, and I despise nationalism. The Christian view of the Messiah is “for all men, and all time;” I should like that, right?
    Nix. To think that the center of your religion is a single, individual man, who lived at one period in history, in one place–one unrepeatable life–rather than a guiding principle, or a moral code, deeply offends me. Religion should be about right and wrong, not “who you know.”
    (But then again, maybe–I don’t see how–here’s some way that something like a Messiah could make sense to me, especially if we ditch the bit about only being saved from hellfire by faith in the historical Jesus–and some varieties of “Christian” might.
    (But don’t hold your breath.)

I hate this. I hate being a skeptic, practically an atheist. I hate being divorced from the religion and community I grew up in. The people I grew up with, my parents, the girls I was interested in–generally Christians. But can I abandon my sense–that I now believe Christianity to be false–to try to just be “at home” in the ol’ familiar Christian faith? Ha! I can’t.

My life sucks.


Party per bend sinister wavy bendy sinister wavy vert & or, & sable, in fess point a demi-pellet ensorcelled rayonny or inverted & bendwise sinister issuant from the party, in sinister base a roundel bendy sinister wavy vert & or.
Or something…
Oh, just go here.

Thank you again everyone for your input.

This had to get put on a back burner due to a personal crisis. I hope to be able to read the old threads soon though.

Thank you again…

***bigred1 goes into indefinite lurk mode sigh

ySiC
Beth

Dear Beth- Actually,many Jews today DO accept Jesus as the Messiah-they’re called Messianic Jews.Try finding a congregation in your local phone and calling them up-I’m sure they’ll be happy to explain their views to you.I think Zev ought to do the same thing.There’s also an excellent program on Trinity Broadcasting called “In the Footsteps of the Messiah”,hosted by Joseph Good,who is a Messianic Jew.Check your TV listings. Maranatha- Brian.

Brian,
I hate to quibble, but, a Jew that accepts Jesus Christ is called a Christian.
Renee

This site as some interesting reasources on this topic: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

Actually, Zev ** WOULDN’T ** do the same thing. “Messianic Judaism” is Christianity, period. There are very few things that are agreed upon by the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist branches of Judaism. On this issue, however, there is agreement across the board: Messianic Judaism is Christianity.

I don’t believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn because such a belief defies logic without transcending it. Invisibility and Pinkness are mutually exclusive.


“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side.” — Han Solo

Just to clarify, the “immaculate conception” refers to the birth of Mary, not Jesus. The idea is that she was born without original sin.

Also, (I don’t mean to offend anyone by implying that they don’t know this, but…), the Jews didn’t kill Jesus. The Romans did. And, they crusified a lot of people, not just Christ.

Another thing, Jesus never actually stated that he was the messiah. (not that he didn’t believe it) Whenever he was asked, he would reply in riddles and never give a clear answer.

Just a few things to ponder…

–UgglerJay


“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” --Napolean Bonaparte

Indeed. Why not just call the whole shebang “Paulism”?

Does anyone else find it ironic that a huge portion of the “Christian” texts were written by someone who did not study with the “living” Christ?

There are many theories that attempt to explain these aspects of Our Galloping Goddess. Some claim She is “MEGA-pink”, some say She is “invisible pink”, some say “transcendently pink”; the Reformed Tillyites hold that the IPU is invisible, but if She ever did manifest herself She would be pink. Others claim that She is truly invisible and metaphorically pink. Still more claim that She is invisible to unbelievers such as you, yet is visible in Her pink glory to those who believe hard enough. How hard do you have to believe? Why, hard enough to see an invisible pink unicorn, of course!

In the end, the disputes over Her attributes of pinkness and invisibility are moot. For it is stated in the Big Golden Book o’ Atheism that Our Goddess has these attributes:

  1. Invisibility.
  2. Pinkness.
  3. No matter how it might seem to our puny human intellects, there is no contradiction between (1) and (2). It’s a Mystery that only the High Priestess (currently Natalie Ramsey nee Overstreet) is allowed to fully comprehend.
  4. The more self-contradictory She is, the more She exists. So even if there were a contradiction, between (1) and (2) - which there isn’t - it would just prove beyond any doubt that She really does exist.

Therefore any contradiction only makes Her existence more self-evident.

As Gods go, invisibility and pinkness is not a terribly hard thing to resolve. It’s not half so bad as a wholly good God who creates evil, a God that is both three and one at the same time, a God that is wholly just and wholly merciful, or a God that is both wholly man and wholly God…


Kazoo 6:73

“For her Pinkness is such that it transcends pinkness. Yea, it is beyond the ken of man or mind to comprehend, but we shan’t question it for it is the doubter than shall be skewered upon Her Sacred Horn, like unto a shish kebob.”

I think the initial question has been answered here, and in the earlier threads. Ignoring the trivial (like descent from David, which is neither provable nor disprovable), there are two main reasons Jews do not accept Jesus:

(a) The definition of the messianic era under classical Judaism is sketchy, based only on the prophets, but the messiah is supposed to usher in a time of universal peace (lions lying with lambs, all that) and the revival of the dead. That hasn’t happened, therefore the messiah hasn’t come. It’s a simple kind of explanation.

(b) At Mount Sinai, God told Israel how to live a good (holy) life. He didn’t say anything about “belief” in God, let alone belief in Jesus. He did say that the covenant at Sinai and the Rules He handed down were eternal. God doesn’t lie. Therefore, anyone urging that the Rules be ignored (like, say, Paul) is wrong. Again, fairly simple.

OK? Those are the two main point.

Now, further elaboration. (Tom, jump on in at any time.) The earliest Christians were, in fact, Jews who thought Jesus had come to fulfil the messianic expectations. They expected Jesus’ return from death to be imminent, and to bring the messianic era. They didn’t bother to write down or codify their stories about Jesus, because there was no need – he would be here soon to explain everything.

As decades passed and Jesus didn’t return, his followers had an awkward choice:

  • Admit that the Jews were right and that Jesus wasn’t the messiah; or
  • Reformulate the whole messianic bit to anticipate a second coming.

They chose the latter, and under Paul’s guidance decided to split with Judaism altogether. ::: shrug :::

Jewish ideas of what salvation means and what the messiah means have been shaped by Christianity, as Christianity has been shaped by Judaism. Sometimes the shaping has been a negative reaction, sometimes a following. Medieval Jewish thought about the messianic era relies as much on Christian theology as on classical Judaism.

Much of what Zev and CMKeller have mentioned of Jewish views of the Messiah date from rabbinic times (say, around 100 BC to 200 AD), not from prophetic times (preceding 500 BC). Those ideas were current at the time of the early Christians, and adapted by them; as reactions to the Christian ideas were adapted into rabbinic thought.

One last bit: don’t be confused about Jews for Jesus, who are Christians trying to convert Jews. There are some so-called Messianic Jews, a very small population, that essentially tries to go back to pre-Paul and create a combined Judeo-Christian religion. However, Jews for Jesus is not one of those.

Jewish relations with Rome were rarely cordial. Jewish relations with ancient Greece (in the time of Alexander and after) were often cordial, but Rome was usually viewed as the Enemy. The rabbis of the era told stories about the wickedness of ancient Edom, which was a thinly-veiled metaphor for Rome.

I think I’ve covered everything except the Pink Stuff.

Outstanding job, everyone! The bottom line to me is that Jesus was not the messiah that the Jews expected. This IMHO has a great deal to do with God’s fondness for surprising people – hindsight is 20:20 but foresight is fairly myopic. That is, Jesus was not the warrior king who would throw the Romans out, as most Jews expected, nor was he the ultimate Prophet of Righteousness who would restore the Law in all its fulness and punish those who did not keep it, as the minority (Essenes, for example) expected. What he did was to call for a one-on-one relationship between God and man and condemn legalism and self-righteousness. If I were to call CMK Pharasaical, both he and I would understand it as a compliment – although most of the rest of the board would probably think I was flaming him.

Now, when you consider that the Religious Right expects the imminent return of Jesus in the Second Coming, and expects him to reign as King and judge the ungodly, what conclusion can you draw? :slight_smile:

Reply to Zev- Glad to see you’re so open-minded about Messianic Judaism.Why SHOULDN’T you talk to some of them? I’m sure they’ll be glad to be set straight about their false belief in Jesus.Who knows,maybe you’ll be able to bring them back into the fold. Maranatha.

CKDextHavn:

It may not be physically provable or disprovable (e.g., Y-chromosome DNA), but it’s logically disprovable…if you claim the guy had no physical father (i.e., Mary was a virgin, he “conceived through the Holy Spirit”), then he wasn’t a male-line descendant of David. QED.

Chaim Mattis Keller