Why do people hate Jews?

[Jackmannii]

@Abe

What are you trying to say? And do you actually understand what I was saying? I’m talking specifically about reasons why anti-semitism is on the rise (not was whenever). Of course, it could be an entirely random development with absolutely no reason behind it, but I highly doubt it, particularly in the face of recent history.

History provides many examples of periods when anti-Semitism was “on the rise” - including mass murders in medieval times, outbreaks of pogroms in Russia, anti-Jewish riots in the Middle East and the official state policy of Nazi Germany - none of which can be blamed on the policy of the Israeli government. Many of the factors behind this sorry history are common to bigotry throughout the ages, and involve religious frenzy, fear and hatred of someone who is “different”, and insecurities among those who see themselves in a tenuous economic and/or social position.

What it does boil down to is overwhelmingly hate for hate’s sake, the same old story, hardly unique to any ethnic group. In the Jews’ case, Israel provides a convenient smokescreen for bigots. If it wasn’t Israel, there would be some other excuse.

Jews don’t have any official policy any more than Americans do, nor have I ever suggested such an allegation.

One wonders in both cases (anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism) if approach and policy can have anything whatsoever to do with it?

Um.

Jews’ feelings toward Israel, for instance are far more complex than statements like the above would indicate. For instance, if fervent support for Israel with limited qualification were the “policy” of American Jews, they would vote overwhelmingly for Republican presidential candidates. In reality they are heavily Democratic voters, largely over issues of social justice in which they make common cause with those who are far less enthusiastic about Israel.
Bigots know or choose to ignore facts like these.

Both Jews and Americans however are forced to bear the consequences of the policies of their political/spiritual homeland, and here the relative cohesiveness and insularity of Jewish culture exacerbates the problem of collective judgement by third parties. Again no one is implying this is just and fair – it just is. Understand the problem before you try to fix it.

You may not be aware of this, but statements about “the relative cohesiveness and insularity of Jewish culture” come uncomfortably close to a couple of the staples of of anti-Semitism down through the years (“They keep to themselves, they don’t mix”*). Every group that has been the target of murderous bigotry tends to hang together to some degree for protection, even as inevitable assimilation occurs. There’s nothing uniquely Jewish about it.

*and the unintentionally hilarious corollary, “They’re pushy.”

[tomndebb]

To argue that Goldwyn, Spielberg, Geffen, Katzenberg, Spelling, Spielberg, Ovitz, Wasserman, Mayer, Tisch, Eisner, Sarnoff, Goldenson, Paley, et al.–either today or historically–did not exert significant control on Hollywood or the media is silly beyond words.

No. What is “silly beyond words” is cherry-picking a list of people who had significant influence on the entertainment industry and pretending that that influence amounts to control. If these people actually controlled the industry, nothing would happen that they opposed. That is what control means. There is no question that Jews are statistically overrepresented in the entertainment industry; they certainly exert a major influence over it–but they do not control it. Heck, Eisner cannot even control Disney or Levin control all of Time-Warner, despite the fact that that is their job.

If you can demonstrate that all the top officers at Time-Warner, Disney, Viacom, Sony, CBS, NBC and a few other outfits are Jewish, you have the beginnings of a case for “Jewish control,” but simply noting that there are many Jews in the business only indicates that there are many Jews in the business, not that they guide every action taken by the business. Are you going to next claim that Rupert Murdoch is Jewish?
Do Protestants “control” the automoble industry or the aircraft industry?

---

But jealousy is no reason, and it can be described as “manufactured” no more than any other feeling can be so described.

If jealousy is not a reason, you need to go argue with those who claim that it has been a reason. I am perfectly willing to modify my statement to note that the creation of a feeling of jealousy has been the result of lies and manufactured claims (such as “control” of the financial industry), but it is still not a primary motivator for hatred of the Jews and, to the extent that it exists, it is still based on lies and has found a fertile ground for growth in attitudes that preceded the lies.

[Acsenray]

If some of this discussion is confusing to some people, it might be important to point out that sometimes “Jewish” means a religious group, and sometimes it means an ethnic group. These two groups aren’t necessarily exactly equivalent. In America, when someone speaks of “looking Jewish,” he or she is usually referring to a stereotype regarding the appearance of Jews of central European origin.

[OliverTwistofLime]

Many bigots who “hate Jews” pass that feeling on to their children. Often just one event can make a bigot hate an entire group…for example…not getting a job once because a Jew got it…or that damn Jew cut in front of me in line.

No one says that stupid Baptist took my parking place or anything to that effect.

Of course, Tom of tomndebb is correct in saying in strict terms that the Jews don’t control anything but the Jew hater believes these lies as if they were truths.

What is laughable is how many people with prejudice toward Jews …when they get sick…want to see a Jewish Dr.

And the truth of the matter is that Jewish people just as atheists, and all other religicists do at times things that annoy us. But not because they are Jewish, or Catholic, or Asian…simply because they are human beings.

[kelly5078]

My two cents worth, just to add something that I haven’t seen mentioned. The causes of anti-semitism are far too multifarious and fuzzy for me to get my mind around, and I’ve been trying for over 20 years.

There is considerable ignorance on the part of Christians towards Jews, and vice versa. The extent of this ignorance is astounding (at least in the context of 20th/21st Century North America and Norther Europe), considering that the two have lived side by side for centuries. Nothing is hidden, yet many, if not most, find it more desirable to make assumptions than to bother to learn something.

I’m not throwing stones here (except toward those who are bigots), at least not without hitting myself in the process. Prior to meeting my wife, who was raised Orthodox Jewish, I knew diddley squat about Jews and Judaism in spite of what I thought was considerable exposure. After all, I had roomed with three Jews for nearly a year in grad school. My wife was more attuned to Christian culture than I was to Jewish culture, since the former is so dominant, but was almost entirely ignorant of Christian theology. And we are considered educated people.

There is a strong undercurrent of suspicion toward the goyim on the part of Jews that the current climate of religious tolerance is fragile and apt to fall apart at any moment. Whether this is true or not, there are certainly historical precedents Jews can point to to justify their nervousness.

At the same time, as several posters have revealed, there is suspicion of the Jews being in control of certain sectors of the economy, and of acting with some sort of Jewish agenda.

All this in spite of the fact that, as I said, nothing is going on sub rosa. Having been on both sides of the divide, I can attest that the real differences between Jews and Christians are way overblown, and that those difference that do exist can be understood quite well with only a little thought and a little reading.

[Acsenray]

I’ve seen anti-Jewish prejudice even amongst Hindus from India, who have hardly any contact with Jews at all. With regard to one person I’ve encountered, my theory is that he picked it up from working in the big business climate.

[roger_thornhill]

@Weirddave

Roger-OK, I shot my load. What does that mean? Do I need to wipe it up? Do people swallow? I’m kind of confused as to what you meant by that. Still, I always enjoy shooting my load.

Forgive me. Just a cheap shot on my behalf, rankled by your use of “mental masturbator” in GD.

@Tomndebb

If jealousy is not a reason, you need to go argue with those who claim that it has been a reason. I am perfectly willing to modify my statement to note that the creation of a feeling of jealousy has been the result of lies and manufactured claims (such as “control” of the financial industry), but it is still not a primary motivator for hatred of the Jews and, to the extent that it exists, it is still based on lies and has found a fertile ground for growth in attitudes that preceded the lies.

On reflection, what I probably believe and wanted to say was that hatred of Jews is to a large extent (and nowadays) jealousy of Jews. In other words, the manifestation of an underlying jealousy is hatred. Or, to put it another way, I would tentatively suggest (as a Christian who has always felt an affinity towards Jews - not least because Jesus was a Jew - and who considers himself (and indeed by definition all Christians) to be “completed Jews” - no offence intended towards Jews) that the hatred is essentially jealousy. In other words, the original question might better be framed as “Why are people jealous of Jews?” The short answer to that would be “Because they have been phenomenally successful”.

The most important way in which I disagree with you would be in the claim that the jealousy has been created or manufactured. The second major disagreement would be that such “created jealousy” is the result of lies.

To take the second point first, it is the devil’s own job to determine what is a lie and what is not. Truth is not manifest, it is not lying there under a coating of dust waiting for us to find it, wipe off the dust and gain full possession of it. (Not that you are saying this, but I think such needs to be said when a discussion of truth is embarked on.) Calling things that have some basis in truth “lies” also has the unhappy side effect of making it more difficult to discern (and to “sell”) a lie when an incontrovertible lie needs to be dealt with. Further, to call something that contains some truth a lie reduces the word to something much less, and requires us to use another word (which doesn’t exist) when we want to describe a true lie.

Regarding the first point, I am concerned at the notion of a hidden hand manipulating the way ordinary people think, feel and react. Would you, Tom, include yourself among those in whom a feeling of jealousy (about anything, not just the Jews) has been thus “created”? Would you include yourself among those people in whom any kind of feeling could be created? Or are you immune to this process, say, through education or the ascent to a higher moral plane?

Please understand that this is not meant sarcastically or from hostile motives. My aim is to cause you to consider whether you believe there is a class of people who do the manipulating (and are largely immune themselves to such) and a whole class of other people who are, as it were, led by the nose?

Regarding the jealousy that many people feel towards Jews, is it not possible to see it as a perversion of a right judgement? Instead of affirming Jews for their success, those people twist their judgement into something very nearly its opposite: contempt and hatred; and this contempt and hatred is a manifestation of an underlying jealousy.

[FinnAgain]

@roger thornhill

On reflection, what I probably believe and wanted to say was that hatred of Jews is to a large extent (and nowadays) jealousy of Jews. In other words, the manifestation of an underlying jealousy is hatred.

You have it backwards.
The manifestation of underlying hatred is jealousy.
Obviously all Jews are not worthy of envy.
Obviously all Jews are not sucessful.
Obviously all Jews are not fungible.
You can be jealous of one Jew, or ten, or ten thousand, but in order to be jealous of “The Jews.” you’ve first got to have the desire to remove individual humanity from a group and turn them into “the other” (to steal a deconstructionist term).

@roger thornhill

Or, to put it another way, I would tentatively suggest (as a Christian who has always felt an affinity towards Jews - not least because Jesus was a Jew - and who considers himself (and indeed by definition all Christians) to be “completed Jews” - no offence intended towards Jews)

Why might a Jew find the idea offensive that their realigion wasn’t complete until y’all came around? :rolleyes:

@roger thornhill

In other words, the original question might better be framed as “Why are people jealous of Jews?” The short answer to that would be “Because they have been phenomenally successful”.

Nope, because that belief already betrays a fundemental hatred.
Instead of saying “People who are Jews have been sucessful.”
Some say “Because they, The Jews, hav been phenomonaly succesful.”
It’s already an irrational belief that informs this ‘jealousy of an entire group.’

@roger thornhill

The most important way in which I disagree with you would be in the claim that the jealousy has been created or manufactured. The second major disagreement would be that such “created jealousy” is the result of lies.

It has obviously been manufacted.
As there are no “The Jews” only individual people who happen to be Jews, the outside imposition of identity proceeds and informs this jealousy.
Further, it is informed by the same half-truths or lies.
Saying “The Jews” have been very succesful is a half-truth at best.
Yes, there are individuals who are sucessful and are also Jews, but saying that “The Jews” are sucessful is simply false to facts.

@roger thornhill

Calling things that have some basis in truth “lies” also has the unhappy side effect of making it more difficult to discern (and to “sell”) a lie when an incontrovertible lie needs to be dealt with. Further, to call something that contains some truth a lie reduces the word to something much less, and requires us to use another word (which doesn’t exist) when we want to describe a true lie.

So can we at least agree that they are, at best, destrutive half-truths?

@roger thornhill

Regarding the first point, I am concerned at the notion of a hidden hand manipulating the way ordinary people think, feel and react. Would you, Tom, include yourself among those in whom a feeling of jealousy (about anything, not just the Jews) has been thus “created”?

To the extent that anybody falls for categorical perception and ‘fungible groups’ they have indeed have a worldview that is false-to-facts and created.

@roger thornhill

Would you include yourself among those people in whom any kind of feeling could be created? Or are you immune to this process, say, through education or the ascent to a higher moral plane?

I would say that education and a thorough training in semantics can help alleviate many of these problems, yes.
Not to put words in anybody else’s mouth of course.

@roger thornhill

Please understand that this is not meant sarcastically or from hostile motives. My aim is to cause you to consider whether you believe there is a class of people who do the manipulating (and are largely immune themselves to such) and a whole class of other people who are, as it were, led by the nose?

There doesn’t have to be any class that does the manipulation. It may very well be part of a ‘group hallucination’.

@roger thornhill

Regarding the jealousy that many people feel towards Jews, is it not possible to see it as a perversion of a right judgement?

Nope.

@roger thornhill

Instead of affirming Jews for their success,

Which Jews?
All Jews?
Some Jews?
Jews living in one bedroom houses and struggling to make rent?
Jews who own Yachts?
Jews who are thoroughly middle class?

[roger_thornhill]

FA, you raised this question in a previous contribution:

[QUOTE]
And what then is the cause of hundreds upon hundreds of years of anti-semitism in various countries?[?QUOTE]
What is your answer?

[FinnAgain]

[QUOTE=roger thornhill]
FA, you raised this question in a previous contribution:

And what then is the cause of hundreds upon hundreds of years of anti-semitism in various countries?[?QUOTE]
What is your answer?

Truth be told, I don’t have one.
Bad luck? Stupid prejudices? Tribalism?
Just seems like the more ‘rational’ reasons don’t hold water when hatred of a group is inherently irrational.

[gum]

Originally posted by FinnAgain

As there are no “The Jews” only individual people who happen to be Jews

Yes.
That’s one of the things that baffles me. How can you be an anti-Semite, when you can’t tell the difference between Jewish people and non-Jewish?

I used to have a neighbour with whom I talked a lot, as good neighbours do. After five years, or so, he told me - when we were talking religion - he was Jewish.
I didn’t see him as a different person then - which ofcourse, he wasn’t.
So how on earth can you hate “Jews” when they’re no different from you and I?

[roger_thornhill]

It’s not a perfect analogy but it’ll do. In England, many people hate the football club Manchester United. Yes, really hate it. Even sing songs nearly half a century on about an air crash which killed many of the players and staff.

There is nothing specifically sectarian about this hatred (United has always played many Scots and Irishmen, from both north and south - protestants and catholics), and United have never been involved in a serious footballing disaster such as the Heysel Stadium tragedy in 1985.

Notwithstanding this, the club is the subject of hatred from people who are in many ways quite rational. The reasons for the hatred would appear to be a) the club’s success (in terms of winning trophies, continuous redevelopment of its stadium, wealth) and b) the fact that many of its supporters do not live in the Manchester area but come from all over the UK, indeed all over the world.

a) of course has to do with jealousy, and would seem to be a much more powerful driver than b), which actually applies though currently to a lesser extent to other clubs in England, such as Chelsea and Arsenal (both from London).

I have experienced first hand the bile of people (educated middle-class people) to the club and its supporters, and I think that the phenomenon is not of a different order to the hatred that many people have towards Jews. Jealousy is at the heart of both situations, I suggest.

[Ottenok]

@Cisco

I grew up in the conservative, old-south bible belt. I didn’t know what a Jew was (apart from that Hitler killed lots of them) until I read the bible when I was 14

Damn, by the time I was that age I had read the Christian Bible, decided that the first part was more enjoyable, and the last half was pretty boring. I mean, there are like tons of stories in the OT. The NT is the same one repeated with minute details and crap. Neither OT nor NT motivated me to be Christian or try to convert to Judaism, but for a good read, the OT was where it was at.

What I always think of as funny is that “the Jews” varies a lot. You have French Jews and Russian Jews and Israeli Jews and everything in between (and outside of)… kinda hard to tell when someone is talking about an ethnic grouping, religious belief, or what.

Frankly, I think “the Jews did” is all for the people who get into the “Skiull and Crossbones runs the Presidency” BS.

Maybe they’re pissed that the OT is a better read than the NT?

[Weirddave]

@roger thornhill

Forgive me. Just a cheap shot on my behalf, rankled by your use of “mental masturbator” in GD.

No problem. I can be dense at time, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing my face for my nose. I just want to point out that I did not say that anyone was a “mental masturbator”, as I understand GD rules that would be verboden. I said that the process of trying to find rational reasons for inheriently irrational beliefs was an “exercize in mental masturbation”-an entirely different thing.

[roger_thornhill]

Noted - I didn’t go back and check your wording. Your point is one I have a lot of sympathy with. I suppose I just have an irrational dislike of prefabricated phrases!

[tomndebb]

My aim is to cause you to consider whether you believe there is a class of people who do the manipulating (and are largely immune themselves to such) and a whole class of other people who are, as it were, led by the nose?

Well, remember that I do not consider jealousy a primary motivation.

However, I am not offering some vast conspiracy, with manipulators and manipulated, either. I only note that while groups of Jews, using their education as a springboard, have achieved a certain success in those times and locations when they were not actively persecuted, the stories that they are wealthy out of proportion to their industry have followed them even when they were impoverished and persecuted. This would hardly be the result of people looking at the Jewish ghettos or shtetls and remarking how well off the inhabitants were, so the idea had to be floating in society regardless of circumstances and against the evidence. Even when Jews find themselves in more open societies and achieve a level of success, the stories told of them are exaggerated from “they do well” to “they control this industry.” Those stories are lies. Often they are repeated lies–with people unthinkingly passing on things they have heard, but they are lies all the same. I do not believe that they are invented by small groups of conspirators (although the kings who initially wiped clean their debts to specific moneylenders by expelling the entire Jewish populations of their countries certainly pointed to an imagined wealth as part of their propaganda campaigns), but that people are willing to exaggerate moderate success into something more because they are willing to believe evil things about anyone who is “other” and that some people are willing to invent things simply out of fear or hatred. Fr. Coughlin certainly had the resources to know how much of his broadcast material was false. I have no idea how much of his rantings, prompted by his hatred, he accepted from other sources and how much he invented, himself. Henry Ford sponsored a publication of the Protocols because he believed those stories about the Jews before he encountered that work. He was both smart enough and had sufficient resources to discover the falseness of his statements, but he simply passed them on with his prejudices. (His notorious dismissal of history might have been an impediment to his taking the time to research something he “knew” was true, but the result of his publication was to pass on stories about Jewish wealth and Jewish conspiracies at a time when Jews in the U.S. were overwhelmingly poor.)

If the stories of “wealthy Jews” had only appeared in those times and places where Jews did, indeed, achieve a level of success within society, I might entertain the idea that jealousy was a primary motivation. (And, by the way, I do not discount jealousy as a secondary support for these prejudices; I simply do not see it as the primary one.) However, when The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion can originate from a land (Russia) in which over 99% of all Jews were desperately poor, I do not see how their “success” can actually be the impetus for the hatred.

[dropzone]

So, I don’t suppose my theory that these guys all got shot down by Jewish chicks with that hot Sephardic “big boobs and raven tresses” look isn’t going to get much traction in this discussion. ;j

[Carnac_the_Magnificent]

@tomndebb

No. What is “silly beyond words” is cherry-picking a list of people who had significant influence on the entertainment industry and pretending that that influence amounts to control. If these people actually controlled the industry, nothing would happen that they opposed. That is what control means. There is no question that Jews are statistically overrepresented in the entertainment industry; they certainly exert a major influence over it–but they do not control it. Heck, Eisner cannot even control Disney or Levin control all of Time-Warner, despite the fact that that is their job.

Do Protestants “control” the automoble industry or the aircraft industry?

So, sorry old chap, but I responded to your earlier assertion: "Regardless that a great many Jews make their living in those industries, they do not exercise “control.”

Your characterization that the past/present power brokers I cited (Goldwyn, Spielberg, Geffen, Katzenberg, Spelling, Spielberg, Ovitz, Wasserman, Mayer, Tisch, Eisner, Sarnoff, Goldenson, Paley) “make a living in these industries” really downplayed their immense power. Glad to see you refine that statement.

I then argued that these men exert “significant control on Hollywood or the media.” Do note that I said nothing about complete control, nor did I mention the words cabal or conspiracy. Within their sizeable-to-immense spheres of influence, these men exercise control and direction and power. Total control? No, of course not.

You might wish to think the list above is “cherry picking,” but these are among the most powerful men in Hollywood/network media. I read an article several months ago where the writer noted in passing that 12 of Hollywood’s most powerful players are Jewish, as were most of their lieutenants. Can’t provide the exact quote, can’t vouch for his accuracy, nor confirm the accuracy of a third party that might assess his accuracy. But it does show that significant control exists. Comprehensive, industry-wide control? Nope. Never said that.

[Carnac_the_Magnificent]

@Abe

Real nice argument there. Tight, precise, concise… practically irrefutable!!

Now, if only anything at all logically followed from anything else in that post…

Your arguments elsewhere are compelling, but this really borders on Collounsbury behavior: offensive, abusive, “jerkish.” You can do better than that.

[Weirddave]

@Carnac the Magnificent!

I read an article several months ago where the writer noted in passing that 12 of Hollywood’s most powerful players are Jewish, as were most of their lieutenants. Can’t provide the exact quote, can’t vouch for his accuracy, nor confirm the accuracy of a third party that might assess his accuracy. But it does show that significant control exists.

One might wonder exactly why this fact was mentioned “in passing”. Unless the article was about religions in the workplace or possibly about minorities in Hollywood, in which case the mention would likely be more than passing, I can’t for the life of me think of a single reason to mention it unless the author, either subconsciously or consciously, has an ax of his/her own to grind. :dubious: