Why do people hate sex work?

Not liking something does not make it wrong. The question is how you feel about it for others - others who elect to do it. Granted, there are folks who don’t want to be a part of it, or don’t wan’t loved ones part of it, but is there latitude to see how it might be okay for others?

I personally don’t want my loved ones doing certain things, but there are people who don’t shy away from things. The question is, “Can you accept it for others without accepting it for yourself?”

I’m down as saying “anything goes” for consenting adults. I think stoidela is seeking that kind of feedback, since she indicated that she kind of knew that 9 out of ten weren’t going to approve of it for thenselves or their family. She’s polling to see how we feel about “others” doing it.

Hi, Stoidela!

I think there should be laws against coercion (forced participation) and regulations protecting against exploitative business arrangements in the sex industry and they should be enforced. There should also be enforcement of basic laws against assault in situations where the victim is a sex worker (e.g., rape, etc.) If all of that were in place, I have no problems with the sex industry being legalized. (frankly I’d much rather the income go to the women themselves than some guy who is using women’s sexuality to extract money from men).

I don’t THINK I have a problem with sex work in the sense of prudish attitudes towards folks who are in this line of work. Maybe some…? If my niece (currently 11) were to tell me this was her career choice, I’d be worried about her getting hurt or taken advantage of. If someone I did not know were described to me as a prostitute, I might have the expectation that she might have been sexually abused while growing up and doesn’t have particularly high self esteem and holds a low opinion of men and male sexuality–so I’m guilty of that much prejudice I guess–but that’s just because I’m aware of the stats on it, and if the individual in question said these things were not true of her, I don’t think I’d harbor any other insulting or condescending beliefs or expectations of her. I keep saying “her”…I don’t know as how I have any notions at all of what a male sex worker would be like.

I’m not convinced that the criteria (“would you like your loved ones doing this”) is really a valid point - there’s tons of stuff I wouldn’t be happy about if loved ones do it - I’m not happy that our Father who art in Florida, Herbert Be His Name, is still driving. I’m not happy that my nephew has chosen the restaurant field as his career path (nothing against it, just not a good choice, IMHO, for him). I’m not happy that my 16 year old son chose to join the swim team with it’s practices at 6 am 20 miles away when he doesn’t drive yet. and yes, I’d be unhappy if any of my neices chose prostitution as their career path, just as I wouldn’t be happy with anything illegal and/or potentially dangerous.

On the OP:
Perhaps my view is jaded, since I work with ex offenders - I see victims of prostitution all the time - the families of the workers, the workers themselves, the residents of the neighborhoods etc. Would all of this go away with the magic wand of legalization? Certainly not quickly. Bricker’s point about the street level prositute is accurate. I’ve seen many who have been forced into prostitution through family, poverty, drugs, etc.

I remain unconvinced.

Alas, once again, the prude at the orgy, the turd in the punchbowl.

It all sounds very well, all nicely sanitized for your protection. Ain’t so.

Sex for love, sex for compassion, sex for healthy fun and exercise, sex because there’s nothing on tv……Fine. Sex for money? By the definition of the transaction, it is degrading to all parties concerned.

Why? Because money is power abstracted. If I can cause someone to have sex with me who would not otherwise do so, simply because I have the necessary $, it is little more than a very rarified form of rape. Rape, it need not be said, is one of the most vile forms of human degradation. To the degree that it is abstracted, to that degree it is less reprehensible. But finally, it is what it is. “You can’t polish a turd, Beavis”

The more abstract, the less the impact. Porno is that same degradation abstracted to the point of insignificance, if it offers some jollies for those who need it, well, what the hell, in that instance, no one is victimized more than the jolly jerker. It’s his money, and if he washes his hands, no health risk is involved.

I became acquainted with street level prostitution in my youth, as a cabdriver. “Pretty Woman” be damned, it is sordid, degrading, and inhuman. Which form of humanity is more loathsome, the thug or the pimp? I am unalterably opposed to capital punishment, but if I had run over a pimp with my cab I would have washed him off my tires whistling a happy tune.

There are those, I grant, who think it a fine and liberating thing that one can purchase a can of Sex at the Piggly Wiggly. I cannot agree, there is a price, a degradation of the spirit. Degrading the human soul is what sin is, it is the very definition.

I don’t know that there’s someone I would “never” associate with because of their job, I’d like to think I’m a little more mature. Although on second thought, if they were doing something illegal, I certainly wouldn’t want to get involved by association, and they probably wouldn’t want me around anyway because if it came down to testifying in court I’m not going to lie to protect them. However, criminal proceedings aside, I wouldn’t refuse to associate with someone because they were a “sex worker”.

That being said, I wouldn’t want my children associating with any of them, and I also wouldn’t want them to become sex workers of any type. I wouldn’t want them associating with them because children are by nature inquisitive, curious, and more easily influenced than adults. In short, I wouldn’t want anyone encouraging them to get into the industry.

For those of us who believe:
#7 - Thou shalt not commit adultery
Now stripping isn’t technically adultery, but stripping, porn, and prostitution can easily put one in the mind to committing adultery, and most Christians tend to believe that this commandment is about more than simply maintaining the sanctity of the marriage bed.

And I don’t want to hear any wisecracks about PeeWee and Nurse Nancy either - PeeWee was framed I tell you!!!
:smiley:

Sorry, I can’t quite buy that.

Looking at it from a particular viewpoint, a prostitute is someone who is being paid money to pretend that he/she likes you, so much that he/she is willing to get naked and do the horizontal hula for a half-hour or whatever. He/She probably doesn’t have any interest in you, but will fake it because that’s part of the job.

How’s this fundamentally different from being a stewardess, or a waitress, or any other public service industry? “Hi, I’m Tina, I’ll be your waitress this evening. Would you like some more water? Let me get a refill for you!” Same artificial concern, albeit to a lesser degree. But then, waitresses get paid less than prostitutes, so it evens out.

I don’t have a simple answer. Rather, I have a simple answer, but it is incomplete.

I have no problem with sex work. That is, so long as “have no problem” is read “see no reason why there should be legal or social stigma attached to”. I have dated strippers, slept with prostitutes, and purchased pornography.

That said, I would also be disappointed if my child became a stripper, prostitute, or porn star.

Hypocrisy? I like to think not. I would aso be disappointed if my child became a carnival geek, roadside beggar, or advertising executive. Some jobs are both indicative of surrendered expectations and potentially damaging to the human psyche.

To be fair, we associate certain negative potentialities with work in the sex industry which are exacerbated by, if not entirely dependent upon, societal and legal penalties associated with the trade. In anther society, those potential effects might diminish or vanish.

You don’t see the difference between a waitress and a prostitute? So, making love to you is basically on the same emotional level as having someone hand you a sandwich?

Three things:

First, I think there is the dream in our society that sex should be meaningful. It’s the distinction between “making love” and mere “fucking,” and sex work is by definition in the latter category. I mean, no one argues that prostitutes are making love. So I think that people object to sex work because it threatens their ideal of what sex should be.

Second, and related, I think people think that ideally sex should be served up with affection – that’s what makes it “making love” and not mere fucking. By selling sex, people are selling affection or artificial closeness, and some people feel affection should not be for sale.

Third, and possibly stemming from the above, some people believe selling sex is morally wrong. It is something that is immoral and sinful and should not be done. (This, I imagine, goes back to the ideal of sex being something sacred.)

Fourth, I think that people who make the distinction of “I wouldn’t do it and I wouldn’t want my daughter to do it, but I don’t care if others do it” are not being perfectly honest. To me, it sounds like “I wouldn’t marry a black man and I wouldn’t want my daughter to marry a black man, but I don’t care if others do.” If it’s so darn okay, why wouldn’t you do it? Why wouldn’t you allow your daughter to, or approve of her doing it?

To me, if there’s a job that you wouldn’t do and wouldn’t want your loved one to do – scrub toilets, work on an oil rig, be a lawyer, whatever – then there must be reasons to object to it – like concerns about health and/or safety, or moral disapproval. If it’s truly okay, it ought to be okay for everyone. Since you tacitly admit that it’s not by admitting you wouldn’t do it, then we’re back to the OP: What, precisely, is wrong with it?

Really? I think that people who disparage the honesty of those with different opinions are being less than perfectly polite, not to mention rational.

I do not want to gamble away all my money. I wouldn’t want my daughter to gamble away all of her money. I don’t care if you gamble away all of your money.

Yes, though your list of reasons is hardly exhaustive. Having a reason to not desire an outcome does not compel me to condemn others for achieving that outcome.

Okay and desirable are not synonyms. I have higher hopes both for myself and my children than “okay”.

I tacitly admit no such thing. I explicitly state that it is okay and I do not find it personally desireable.

You explicitely state that this make me dishonest. My explicit response to that would be inappropriate to this forum.

Elucidator,

I can clearly understand the viewpoint you’re coming from, but let me ask a few questions.

  1. Do you believe that all sex workers are abused by pimps and having sex for money out of desperation?

  2. If no, do you disagree with the idea of prositution if the those that do it are doing it of their own free will?

  3. If legalizing prostitution were to eliminate pimps, and raise the standards for sex workers in general, would you support it (understand that I didn’t say it would, I’m just asking a what if)?

  4. Do you consider prostitution more or less morally questionable than a person who will sleep with almost anyone without money exchanging hands?

I’ll ditto Spiritus Mundi on this. I am not a born-again Christian. I wouldn’t particularly want a child who was a born-again Christian preachin g at me during Thanksgiving. But if Jerry Falwell wants to be a born-again Christian, I don’t have a problem with it.

Or, a more innocuous way, I’m not a big fan of eating whole crawfish. I personally don’t want to do it. But I can see how and why people would want to do it. I wouldn’t want my brother to become a herion addict, but that doesn’t mean that I think herion should be illegal.

Stoidela, over the entire population, you might find only one in 10 in favor of sex work, but you’ll probably find a lot of those ones here on the SDMB. :slight_smile:

I read this statement over and over a few times trying to grasp what I was feeling. I still am not sure.

I have no problem with the stripping industry, prostitution, or pornography as long as it is regulated, kept away from minors, and doesn’t exploit those who are weak. In spite of how many times I have heard Marilyn Chambers moan “I loooooove to fuck”, I still believe that a majority of those in the industry are not there because they enjoy the work but only because of their education level, to support a drug addiction, or have no other means to support themselves. I think a lot of customers of hookers, strippers, and porn are sad and lonely people. (Notice that I didn’t say ALL - I am sure there are exceptions.) On a whole, I think the whole industry is rather depressing and bleak.

I feel that I am a very open minded and willing to accept a lot of things, however, reading the above quote gave me a sick feeling in my gut. Without passing judgement on others, it is beyond my comprehension to even imagine how I would feel knowing my mother is opening her legs and getting fucked by strangers a few times each day. In the case of my own father, I would question the love for his wife if he approved of other men using her for their own sexual gratification.

Maybe I do have a double standard, but althought I enjoy (and own) a good raunchy porn every once in a while and feel that prostitution should be legalized, I would never want a family member or good friend working in the industry.

{Removed extra spaces. Try not to rest your elbow on the “enter” key before you hit submit. :wink: --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 01-04-2001 at 07:08 PM]

Why is scrubing toilets indirectly equated with a lawyer? What is degrading about being a lawyer? Many lawyers take pride in what they do. And I can’t blame them.

elucidator, I could not possibly disagree with you more. Why would a Sex for Money transaction automatically be degrading to any party? This only follows if you consider sex inherently degrading. It is no more degrading than money exchanged for a service of mowing my lawn.

How so? By this logic, paying someone to mow my lawn who would not otherwise do so for free is a very rarified form of slavery.

Bear in mind that what you consider Pornography, others may simply classify as entertainment. The degradation is in the eye of the beholder. I find the viewing of beautiful, healthy individuals engaged in sexual congress to be interesting – you might enjoy watching two grown men beat each other into submission in a boxing ring. I could possibly be convinced that the boxing event was far more degrading.

Since degradation and sin are very subjective concepts, and the existence of a human soul is by no means a given, your definition only has relevance for someone with your exact viewpoint on life.

It’s not indirectly related. It’s directly related. Just ask Wildest Bill. Actually, sometimes scrubbing toilets is a more glamorous job, I’m sure.

In all seriousness, Count_of_MonteCristo, Jodi is a herself a lawyer, which is probably why she put that in. The point she was making is that ANY job can seem degrading at some point. Any job can be one you’d be embarrassed to tell a particular other person you do. But rationally, there must be a logical reason why it is bad and not just “it seems unethical to me and so it must be wrong.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, Jodi.


Fourth, I think that people who make the distinction of “I wouldn’t do it and I wouldn’t want my daughter to do it, but I don’t care if others do it” are not being perfectly honest.

What’s so dishonest about respecting the fact that different people have different beliefs, and that yours aren’t any more valid than theirs?

In theory, I don’t have any problem with sex work as long as the workers are consenting adults. But when I think about my friends/family members becoming sex workers, my response tends to be more visceral. It varies with the kind of work, too, with the more…physical kinds of work provoking stronger responses. If a friend said she worked on a phone sex line, I’d probably be kind of amused. If she said she was thinking about stripping, I’d be kind of worried and freaked out about it. If she said she was thinking about becoming a prostitute, I’d offer her a loan and a place to stay til she could find a “real” job. I know this isn’t really rational, and I don’t think my position is either right or wrong, but when I’m honest with myself it’s how I feel.

First of all, I don’t think it’s right that if I find something particularly distasteful, that I should then try and prevent anyone else from doing it. I think anal sex is really kind of gross, but I don’t think that other people shouldn’t be permitted to do it solely because of my reaction.

I don’t have a moral objection to these activities, yet I still wouldn’t want my daughters to become prostitutes. Why? Because I have high hopes for them! I claim the right to imagine that it may be one of my children someday who makes great contributions, maybe curing cancer, or inventing the pollutionless car. Maybe she’ll be a great composer or the leader of a social movement, or maybe she’ll rescue endangered species. In short, I unreasonably dream that she may be one of the rare individuals who actually fulfills her potential. In all statistical likelihood, she’ll grow up to be none of these things. And if she is healthy and happy in whatever she does, then I’ll be thankful. Still, if all she does in her life is scrub toilets, or make dirty movies, it will be a shame, because my daughters are the most wonderful people on the planet thank you very much.

Now, change this to my sister and things look different. For one thing, my sister is an adult, while I have a hard time envisioning my little girls all grown up. Would I accept it if I knew my sister was turning tricks? Grudgingly, but yes. Why the grudgingly part? Because sex is an intensely intimate act, and the average John is not Richard Gere, despite what Hollywood might try and tell us on occasion. It’s not so much that it’s morally wrong as it is just viscerally gross. The idea of someone prostituting themselves elicits the same reaction in me as the idea of someone who continuously eats their own boogers. The idea of stripping, or posing nude in a magazine, doesn’t really bother me at all. But the idea of her letting some sleazeball off the street engage in that sort of intimate contact is kind of repulsive. In other words, it’s not the act, but the people involved that make it kind of creepy.

SPRITUS MUNDI says:

[quote]
Really? I think that people who disparage the honesty of those with different opinions are being less than perfectly polite, not to mention rational.
[/quote

Sigh. It was not my intention to disparage anyone’s honesty. I simply think that saying “I wouldn’t behave in this way, but I don’t care that you do because I see nothing wrong with it” is inconsistent. There is obviously “something wrong with it,” at least so far as you (the generic you) are concerned, or you wouldn’t choose not to do it yourself. It appears to be a profession you would prefer your daughter not engage in; how is that consistent with saying you have no problem with it?

This, of course, begs the question, which in the context of gambling would be “why is it not okay to gamble away all your money?” Why wouldn’t you do it? Why wouldn’t you wan t your daughter to do it?

Who said anything about condemning the outcome? The OP asks “At what point does someone’s involvement in sex work render them unacceptable in your eyes, the sort of people you would never associate with or want your (grown) children to know (or heaven forfend, BE)?” To me, responses of “I wouldn’t do it, but I don’t mind if you do” simply beg the question. If it’s okay, then why wouldn’t you do it? There is no “condemnation” there, merely the recognition that if you would not do it, or have your family member do it, there must be something negative about it, at least so far as concerns you and your family.

So engaging in pornography is not a “desireable” goal? Once again, this begs the question: Why not?

Again, why not?

My explicit response would be that I did not intend to offend anyone. Perhaps “inconsistent” or “irrational” would have been a better word choice than “not being perfectly honest?” In any case, my point still stands: It is by your own omission not a “desireable” occupation for you or your daughters. If it’s “okay,” why is it not “desireable”?

Thank you, COUNT, for your defense of my profession. :slight_smile: It’s a rare thing around here. But the point I am trying to make is just as ENDERW intepreted it: any job can be degrading, because “degrading,” or even “unacceptable,” is a matter of opinion. I am merely pointing out that a person who says “it’s okay for you, if you want, but not for me or my family” obviously has someissues, be they ever so minor, with the profession – and issues that extend beyond the individual, since he or she wouldn’t want a family member doing whatever, either.

ROBODUDE says:

Again, dishonest is probably not as good a word as “inconsistent” for what I’m getting at. If I say, “I would never be a Muslim,” I am neither disrespecting the fact that some people are Muslim, nor claiming that my beliefs are more valid than theirs. I am, however, clearly saying “I have issues with Islam that would prevent me from following it.” And, in the context of sex work, those issues can obviously extend beyond mere personal taste, since people have not just said “I wouldn’t do it” (a matter of personal taste) but also “I wouldn’t want my daughter to do it, either.” My question remains: If it’s a perfectly legitimate and not harmful profession, why wouldn’t you want your daughter to do it?

I think BURUNDI’S response is the most typical, in that I think many people feel that way. Perhaps it is only a “visceral” response, but many people in our society DO think, deep down, that there is something “wrong” with sex work. I know I do. The question presented is what is wrong with sex work. I don’t think a response of “I don’t care if you do it, but I wouldn’t want my daughter to do it” answers that question.