Why do people hate sex work?

[Jodi]

PTALIS –

First of all, I don’t think it’s right that if I find something particularly distasteful, that I should then try and prevent anyone else from doing it.

Nor did I say you should. But, again – why is the idea of sex work distasteful to you?

I don’t have a moral objection to these activities, yet I still wouldn’t want my daughters to become prostitutes. Why? Because I have high hopes for them!

And, by inference, you do not believe that working in the sex industry would constitute fulfilling their potential, and does not constitute a “great contribution” to society. (I agree, BTW; I’m just trying to flesh out what you said.)

Would I accept it if I knew my sister was turning tricks? Grudgingly, but yes. Why the grudgingly part? Because sex is an intensely intimate act, and the average John is not Richard Gere, despite what Hollywood might try and tell us on occasion. It’s not so much that it’s morally wrong as it is just viscerally gross. The idea of someone prostituting themselves elicits the same reaction in me as the idea of someone who continuously eats their own boogers. The idea of stripping, or posing nude in a magazine, doesn’t really bother me at all. But the idea of her letting some sleazeball off the street engage in that sort of intimate contact is kind of repulsive. In other words, it’s not the act, but the people involved that make it kind of creepy.

I frankly do not understand this. The idea of your sister having sex for money is “kind of repulsive,” but the idea of some other girl, unrelated to you, doing it is not? Why? Is it the idea of your sister having sex at all? Or is it her having sex for money? Again, I’d like to see someone explain to me why it’s okay for someone else to do it, and not okay for your mother/daughter/sister. I think a visceral reaction of “creepiness” is legitimate, and probably wide-spread – certainly I share it myself – but I wonder what underlies it.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by PeeWee *
**You don’t see the difference between a waitress and a prostitute? So, making love to you is basically on the same emotional level as having someone hand you a sandwich? /B]

Not quite – I am saying that making love to a paid-for-hire prostitute is basically on the same emotional level as having someone serve me a sandwich. I had a craving, I paid someone to pretend to be nice to me and satisfy it, and our transaction is complete. I have no delusions that the prostitute (or waitress) holds any genuine deep-rooted feelings for me, either.

On the other hand, making love to someone I care about is another matter entirely, because of the additional emotional aspects involved. Trying to say it’s no different than having sex with a prostitute is to oversimplify the matter.

Or, to put it in a food analogy, there’s a big difference between eating a sandwich in a restaurant and having a festive Thanksgiving dinner with close friends and family.

[Spiritus_Mundi]

I accept your clarification, Jodi, though I find your position puzzling. What do you find difficult to understand in the position that not all choices are equally desireable? Where is the inconsistency in saying that one prefers A to B without condemning those who prefer B?

I will be disappointed if my child is a prostitute.
I will be disappointed if my child is a carnival geek.
I will be disappointed if my child is an advertising executive.

I would not, however, have any qualms about my child befriending a whore, geek, or ad man. [sub]well, maybe the ad man.[/sub] I see no way to declare that these attitudes are inconsistent without assuming that all professions are equally desireable. Is that your position?

As to why I feel prostitution is not a desireable profession, I thought it was clear in the sentence: “Some jobs are both indicative of surrendered expectations and potentially damaging to the human psyche.” I also noted, of course, that societal and legal consequences may create an unfair picture of the potential consequenes of sex work. Nevertheless, we live in a society, and I consider that fact when dreaming of the future lives of my children.

[SisterCoyote]

Jodi, I think one other thing you’re not taking into consideration is that people (among other animals) are inherently protective of those with whom they have formed an emotional bond. Therefore, it feels okay and consistent to them to say, “it’s okay for Suzie on the Street to engage in prostitution, but it isn’t okay for me/[insert female relative here].” Because they don’t know Suzie OTS.

As for me, one of my very good friends is a stripper who has really lousy taste in men, but the two things don’t seem related to me; she’s witty and smart, had a no-more-abnormal-than-anyone-else childhood and runs a website of her own on the side. (She also recently got out of the business when the bar she was working for was sold to a person who is known for expecting “his” girls to turn tricks on the side, which should suggest something about her ideas on the subject.

That said, the biggest problem I have with the idea of prostitution, either for myself or my sister (I’d suggest my mother, but I don’t even want to conjure that picture) is that, as it is illegal in the state we live in, it is also unsafe and somewhat “creepy” to be involved in. If prostitution were legalized, and the corresponding job safety issues were standardized, then no, I wouldn’t have a problem with someone choosing “sex work” at that level as a profession.

And as for me, personally, lest you accuse me of the same sort of inconsistency, I would rather sell my body than starve to death. If I found myself in a situation where a job in the sex industry - prostitution, pornography (filmed, photographed or otherwise), phone sex (which I’ve considered doing, except that I am the last American virgin and would probably die laughing if I tried), Domme for hire (or sub for hire, for that matter) - was my best option to keep a roof over my head and food in my mouth you can bet I’ll be there.

Would I normally choose this? Probably not - but then, I’m that rare human creature who actually likes the job she does.

[Jodi]

SPIRITUS MUNDI –

I accept your clarification, Jodi, though I find your position puzzling. What do you find difficult to understand in the position that not all choices are equally desireable?

Nothing. But the OP specifically asks why sex work is viewed as undesirable by society. As I have already said, I don’t think “I wouldn’t do it but I don’t care if you do” is particularly responsive to that question.

I would not, however, have any qualms about my child befriending a whore, geek, or ad man. well, maybe the ad man. I see no way to declare that these attitudes are inconsistent without assuming that all professions are equally desireable. Is that your position?

Manifestly not. My position, to the extent that I have one, is to want people to clarify why sex work is particularly undesireable as a profession.

As to why I feel prostitution is not a desireable profession, I thought it was clear in the sentence: “Some jobs are both indicative of surrendered expectations and potentially damaging to the human psyche.”

And I agree. But this, of course, begs an additonal question: Why do you think prostitution is “potentially damaging to the human psyche”? I am not asking this to be rhetorical; I am trying to flesh out other people’s views in an attempt to pin down my own. I would be VERY unhappy if my daughter or son became a prostitute or a porn actor; I would still be unhappy (though less so) if he or she became a stripper or a purveyor of porn. But I’m not sure I can explain precisely why. I think in part it is a belief that allowing someone else to use your body sexually shows a lack of respect for yourself and an unfortunate willingness to be not a person, but merely an object. I also think it’s the “s/he could do so much better” thing, as well as a more visceral (societal) reaction.

DOGSBODY –

And as for me, personally, lest you accuse me of the same sort of inconsistency, I would rather sell my body than starve to death.

Well, so would I, I imagine. The question isn’t whether you’d do it before you’d starve to death, but why you would or would not choose it as a profession, on par with other legitimate professions you may have considered.

[SisterCoyote]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
Well, so would I, I imagine. The question isn’t whether you’d do it before you’d starve to death, but why you would or would not choose it as a profession, on par with other legitimate professions you may have considered.

Well, I kinda covered this with my final couple of paragraphs above, I thought, but just to clear things up:

Prostitution: Not as the industry stands, largely because I cannot assure my own safety. If it were a legitimate business, and if I thought anyone would be willing to buy from me, and if I could make as much or more money (with benefits) as I do now, then yes, I might consider it.

Pornography: Well, I’ve considered working in Hollywood, and there are those who say it’s one and the same. Actually, this is the one I have the most problems with; because the usual pornographic image is one that emphasizes the woman’s helplessness/weakness and therefore projects an image of women as victims, I can’t bring myself to condone it by being involved in it. But I think that’s the subject of a whole other debate, and one that I’ll bet has been beaten to death somewhere on these boards. However, if I were to start my own business, with me behind the camera and making decisions about what the shots are like…hmmmm…

Stoid, I am not passing judgement on your site - I haven’t seen it.

Phone Sex: I did consider this as a job, at least while I am a student. I found another job that I a) enjoy more, and b) have some experience in (remember, LAV) instead. But going back to school wasn’t the first time I considered this as a job; I thought about taking it on as a second job to help make ends meet when I was living on my own for the first time.

Domme/sub for Hire: See my comments about prostitution above.

I feel sure I’m missing some profession that’s been listed, but I think this post is long enough.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

They say prostitution has been around since the beginning of trade, but my impression is that technology has allowed the industry to explode. Before long we will all be able to identify ourselves as employed in agriculture, information technology the sex trade and gambling. The last two industries have essentially been legalized in the western world or generally accepted until the citizenry lodge a complaint. Now I play poker now and then, and when I was younger, horny desparate and curious I availed my self of the services of a prostitute. Although some of you are aware that I wouldn’t be proud of that, I do not wish to curtail the opportunities of others to satisfy themselves. That is their choice.

But somewhere in our society we have to draw the line. Several years ago we heard of porno involving murder. that is obvious. But what about the slurp ramps you have down there in America. Isn’t that the ultimate exploitation. These women have no idea what is on the other side.Day after day, member after member, with no protection from STD’s.
Even at the height of my libido there was a limit to how long I could engage in pleasuring my female partner orally.
You can’t tell me these girls are there of their own free will. Desparate circumstances like drugs, ugliness and poverty are no doubt behind this kind of employment.Its a lot worse than the sweat shops that Michael Jordon is accused of supporting.

[elucidator]

I am intrigued by the turn the thread has taken: what is the ultimate source of “creepiness” averred to.

I think its Darwin/human nature. The reproductive imperative is the central motive of life, without it, nothing. Sex is serious business, it is the business of life itself.

In humans,it gets a bit thicker. There is much to suggest that the pleasure and intimacy of human mating forms the essential bond that makes human reproduction possible, not so much that it makes sex enjoyable, thus procreation more likely, but that it promotes pair-bonding, which determines human parenting methods.

We are probably somewhat “hard wired” to prefer mating to screwing. The human species is not unique in this regard, but, given the strain of the investment necessary to raise a human being, its a good bet that if it were not so, this particular strain of primates would have vanished long ago.

[SisterCoyote]

Grienspace,

Please do a search and let me know when you have found a verifiable case of a pornographic film wherein an actor was murdered (“crush” films, disgusting as I find them, don’t count).

And WTF is a “slurp ramp?” I live in the US (not “down in America”, unless you live “up in America”) and I’ve never heard of this.

[remainder of post deleted - I was getting a little hot for GD]

[Spiritus_Mundi]

me What do you find difficult to understand in the position that not all choices are equally desireable?

jodiNothing. But the OP specifically asks why sex work is viewed as undesirable by society. As I have already said, I don’t think “I wouldn’t do it but I don’t care if you do” is particularly responsive to that question.

Then please stop saying things like: saying “I wouldn’t behave in this way, but I don’t care that you do because I see nothing wrong with it” is inconsistent. Inconsistent does not mean “not responsive enough to the question”. Neither is “irrational”.

finally responding to the statement in my first post:
I agree. But this, of course, begs an additonal question: Why do you think prostitution is “potentially damaging to the human psyche”? I am not asking this to be rhetorical; I am trying to flesh out other people’s views in an attempt to pin down my own.

Begs the question? This is suddenly remeniscent of time spent with my 6 year old niece. How far down do you wish to ask “why”? Shall I simply post a link to the latest epistemology thread and say – no valid reason?

Okay – I’ll go one more level. My statement had 2 clauses:
surrendered expectations
potentially damaging to the human psyche

1. A job might be rewarding for a number of reasons: it might be intellectually challenging, it might be emotionally fulfilling, it might result in powerful social/cultural/personal benefit, it might satisfy by allowing an aspect of personal excellence to develop, etc. Jobs whose primary requirement is an accident of physical condition, such as prostitute, do not easily provide any of the above. Therefore, accepting such a job is a surrender of the expectation that one deserves/can find a job that is truly rewarding. I will admit that a person who deeply and passionately enjoys copious quantities of sex with strangers, regardless of other circumstances, might find personal satisfaction as a prostitute. My own experiences (with an admitedly small sample) indicates such folk are rare.

2. The same experience I reference above leads me to believe that repeated sex with strangers initiated as a quest for cash rather than from a desire for physical contact can lead to difficulties in forming fulfilling emotional & physical relationships with one or more lovers. It is also a rare individual who can continually engage in behavior that society views as demeaning, and we do live in a society that views prostitution as demeaning on many levels, without incurring some emotional scarring as a result. Finally, there are physical risks involved with indiscriminate sexual contact with strangers, and some of those risks involve deeply emotional aspects of our lives. None of these are certainties, of course, but the potential for damage exists.

[Monocracy]

There has only been one logical argument against “sex work”, and that was presented by Alan Smithee. Yet, that argument gets very philosophical and deals with abortion issues and such, so i don’t think i’ll touch it.

But, this one quote by Bricker seems pretty silly:

I am opposed to the whore end of the industry, because I believe that most women who sell sex for a pittance are doing it because of desperate circumstances, not out of a knowing, intelligent, coercion-free choice.

Anyone who works a minimum wage job is also doing it out of “desperate circumstances”. No one’s dream job is flipping burgers at McDonalds. Should we get rid of all minimum wage jobs because people only take them as a last resort?

[Joff-Rey]

When I see images like those, I can’t help it. I see it just as they are pushing it at me. Hook, line, and sinker.
**

I say “sink, line, and hooker.”

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

*Originally posted by dogsbody *
**Grienspace,

Please do a search and let me know when you have found a verifiable case of a pornographic film wherein an actor was murdered (“crush” films, disgusting as I find them, don’t count).

I said I heard of it,** Dogsbody**, but to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been convicted of murder for the purpose of making a film.Actually it was more like 5 or 10 years ago that “slasher” films gained some notoriety in the major press.

What is a crush film? Have you read my post where I proved that human testicles could withstand 3 times more crush pressure than you have in the tires of your car?

by dogsbody
And WTF is a “slurp ramp?” I live in the US (not “down in America”, unless you live “up in America”) and I’ve never heard of this.

Hmm I can’t remember but I thought you lived in California. That is where I heard this stuff takes place.Apparently in some establishments they have a wall with a series of holes large enough for a row of patrons to insert their members. On the other side are the girls orally stimulating these…No eye contact, completely anonymous.

by dogsbody
[remainder of post deleted - I was getting a little hot for GD] **

Now that I’ve explained it, you’ll see its nothing to get hot and bothered about.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

*Originally posted by dogsbody *
**Grienspace,

I live in the US (not “down in America”, unless you live “up in America”)

**

Oh, missed that. Canada is up.

[tracer]

Alan Smithee wrote:

Because no form of contraception has yet been devised which is one-hundred percent effective at preventing either conception or disease.

Vasectomy and tubal ligation are so close to being 100% effective in preventing conception that their failure rates are pretty much negligible.

[Scylla]

This is a tough and excellent question.

I’m going to try and answer it on a number of levels.

First off, I’m not going to argue legal issues, only moral ones, and I’ll try to be as honest as I can.

No, I wouldn’t want my daughter involved in sex work. I would feel terrible if she was.

People laugh sometimes at the concept of soul, or spirituality, but there were times in my life when I’ve done things that made me feel sick and tarnished to the depths of my soul. These have always involved a betrayal of trust placed in me by others, or a betrayal of myself in terms of who I think I am. On those occasions of moral laxity, it has always been a long climb to where I could feel good about myself again.

Religion has placed these behaviors into neat categories of sin. These categories may be artificial, but that does not mean that what they represent doesn’t exist.

Your body is your self. If your “self” isn’t your body somehow, then where is it?

“The best things in life are free” is one of those truisms which is also a paradox, becuase the best things in life are also priceless. They can’t be bought, they must be given.

When one sells oneself for sexual work, I think they are also selling something not easily replaced. They are placing a value on their identity, their self. Each time it gets sold, there’s a little less there, and it gets a little harder to regain it. After a time, there may not be anything left.

This is as true of the $10.00 crackwhore, as it is of the trophy wife who throws her husband a roll in the hay so he’ll by her a new Jag.

I once loved a woman, and later found out she did these things to pay her way through law school. When I found out, it didn’t change the way I felt, but I know it cost her more in terms of the coin of self-identity then she gained monetarily. I know it cost her deeply in terms of how she valued herself and perceived our relationship, and probably her subsequent ones as well.

[TheMoonGazer]

This is just a slice of life!

With virtually everyone here agreeing that they have no problem with it, then why is it almost impossible to get people to get prostitution legalized? Even controlled prostitution?

Almost every local politician I know damns prostitutes publicly, fights against topless bars, side with morality groups against any commercial sex business and agrees with ‘dirty books’ in stores being ‘discretely covered.’ I also know that most of the male politicians have either their own porn collection, read said dirty books, visit out of town topless bars or use exclusive escort services.

If everyone agrees with sex work, then I would think that almost all States would agree to legalized and controlled prostitution.

It’s funny, whenever the subject of a topless bar wanting to open up, is discussed by the city counsel, all act like someone s**t on their desks and the application is denied. Yet, head out to the next city, drop in at one of several high end topless clubs and you’ll probably spot a local board member or two there, along with the chief of police.

Personally, I’d not want my sister being a working girl because she doesn’t have the personality to handle the types of guys she’d meet no matter how controlled and clean a place she worked at.

I’d not want a love interest with a history of being a lady of the night either, though stripping is OK, because it would bother me to know that she had probably slept with 2 or 300 men and Joe Coworker might be one. I mean, its different if the girl has slept with 10 or 20, but another thing entirely if one-fifth of the city has had her.

But, that is just me. A lot of men probably would not care, so long as it doesn’t go on while they are together and a smaller group wouldn’t care if it did. An even smaller group would, of course, get turned on by the idea and probably want to secretly watch.

I would much rather go to a legal prostitute, who gets frequently checked, is not addicted to drugs, works in a clean environment or is clean when she arrives, who is not going to rip me off if I don’t keep my guard up, and who does not have a pimp who uses and abuses her. You take your chances with street walkers who do this illegally, but, in all States but 1, you have no option.

[pantom]

By definition, prostitution is unskilled labor (with the possible exception of some high-priced call girls, maybe). Unskilled labor generally is less desireable, and if you go down the ladder of “legit” occupations, to janitor or something like that, a vague stigma attaches. No one says as a child they want to grow up to be a janitor, after all.
Pimps and prostitutes are at the bottom of the heap, just above politicians. One good way of looking at this: exactly how would you go about increasing the productivity of your average prostitute? As far as I know, there would be only one way, and automation is not involved. (I don’t think, anyway, but then my imagination may not be as good as that of some others.)
Finally, legalization or no, prostitution is always going to involve very high medical and criminal risks. There’s no way a prostitute can prevent herself from getting raped somewhere along the way; it’s just the laws of probability. I read somewhere (no cite, I can’t recall where) that prostitutes in their psychology resembled war victims: the same pathologies were exhibited in their behavior, because just about all of them had been victims of assault on numerous occasions.
And regardless of legalization, streetwalking will always tend to degrade and criminalize the neighborhood in which it takes place.
Porn, phone sex, stripping: Ok as far as I can tell. Strippers, some of them, can make quite good money. I can’t come up with a reason to object to any of these three.

[Alan_Smithee]

Monocracy said:
There has only been one logical argument against “sex work”, and that was presented by Alan Smithee.

Gosh, thanks!

Yet, that argument gets very philosophical and deals with abortion issues and such, so i don’t think i’ll touch it.

It doesn’t, really, so I guess this just means its too good to argue with. I mentioned abortion, but it isn’t important to my argument. Unless you think that abortion is a completely neutral act, no more undesireable than eating spinach, creating an unwanted pregnancy is clearly an act to be morally avoided.

tracer wrote:
Vasectomy and tubal ligation are so close to being 100% effective in preventing conception that their failure rates are pretty much negligible.

Depends on what you mean by negligible, I suppose. I did a Yahoo! search and came up with several sets of numbers ranging from .01% - .2% for men and .04% - .4% for women. That’s a pretty wide range, and I have no idea which ones to believe, but the numbers at the low end (for men) would seem to be about the same as the probability of being killed while driving, so I suppose that’s within most people’s range of acceptable risk. Wherefore, if you are a sterilized male with evidence that the lower rates of vasectamy failure are more accurate, and you wish to be a prostitute, I will not try to talk you out of it.

[kabbes]

Objectification. I am opposed to anything which leads us to view people as a little less human and a little more object.

There is a person behind that muff. The sex industry encourages us to ignore it. Once the habit of seeing the object and not the person is formed, it can easily spread to other aspects of our lives.

And how about the self-esteem issues that go with knowing that the world is seeing you purely as something to be used for sexual gratification?

Okay but not for my daughter? I’m not surprised. I’d also like my daughter to end up as more than just a cunt.

pan