Hello? What mental illness? She became a drug addict years after they got together, they had an open marriage the whole time they were together. What mental illness are you talking about?
And I think that at least in the case of my father, your question has been answered: It is acceptable to people who are sexually open, and do not judge prostitution to be a bad thing. You tell me: what is the difference between a couple who swing (and there are hundreds of thousands of such couples in the US, possibly millions) and a couple where one partner is a prostitute? Is it just the money? If so, why? And if it isn’t the money, then you judge the couple who swings just as harshly, which would at least be consistent. Although I still don’t get the source of the judgment…I explained to you the nature of the love, loyalty and commitment between my father and his wife…where is the flaw in that? if they happily choose to have sex with other couples, who are you or anyone else to judge them as wrong? They have a stronger, happier marriage than most.
Yeah, having to pay for companionship is pretty sad. Which would apply to the person who did the paying, not the person who was paid. And it doesn’t make them a bad person, it makes them a lonely, desperate person. I’m glad someone is there to help, since I’m not gonna go make friends or have sex with him just to be nice…are you?
And I don’t know anyone who laughed about anything…do you know someone who had a similar experience to my setpmother and then went on to laugh about it? Please share!
This is the part that gets me; so many people assert that women in sex work of all kinds are being exploited, when just the reverse is true! Ask most hookers, ask strippers and lap dancers, as phone sex workers…it is they who are exploiting the men who pay them. Look who ends up with money in their pocket and tell me again who got exploited.
I cannot pursue debating figures on STD’s because I don’t have access to the figures - my stepmother is ill as is my dad, and I am short on time. So I will just concede to anything anyone says about that. It wasn’t tehe point of the OP in any case.
Um, swinging is having sex with multiple partners with your partner’s permission. Prostitution is having sex for money or other remuneration. But you knew that, right?
Yep, it’s the money. “If so, why” what?
Actually, they do not have to be judges equally in the name of consistency. Some people place a high premium on sexual fidelity and therefore find swinging to be unacceptable (bad), while simultaneously finding prostitution to be more reprehensible still (worse). Some people think swinging is okay but prostitution is not; some people think neither is okay. That doesn’t make the actions identical.
The “source of the judgment”? What don’t you get about this? I think prostitution is largely indefensible as a worthwhile profession. I also disapprove of swinging (as a personal choice) because I place a high premium upon sexual fidelity and trust, and place a good deal of importance in sex as a intimate, bonding experience. I also disapprove (on a personal level) of bestiality, extreme S&M, some of the more extreme fetishes, and extreme hard-core pornography. Just because I will respect your right to do as you wish in your home, does not mean I have to like or even respect what you choose to do. You are entitled to the freedom to do it (so long as no one else is being hurt by it); you are not entitled to have everyone approve of it. And no one is obliged to explain to you why they disapprove of it, if in fact they do.
You have failed to explain, however, how that happiness or commitment arose from your stepmother’s prostitution, or whether it in fact has anything to do with it, or why their experience should be presumed to be typical of what most other couples would experience under the same circumstances.
Who am I? I am Jane Citizen. And I do not have to respect a woman who sells her body, nor a man who cheerfully allows her to do so. And you know what? You have no right to demand that I think anything more of that then I do. Just as your parents do not have to have my approval in order to live their lives, I do not have to have your approval in oder to live mine, and to order my opinions as I see fit. I do not find prostitution to be a respectable profession. I do not find a man who allows his wife to prostitute herself to be a man worthy of respect. I do not believe that such an arragement would be a basis for a healthy relationship in the vast majority of cases. I have every bit as much right to judge the situation as less than favorable as you do to judge it as acceptable. We all have the right to judge the actions of others, and we all do it all the time. The problem with you is that you are not just looking for society to allow sex work, you want society to approve it. That ain’t never gonna happen.
Well, you are free to feel that way. What I was asking was why. What I’ve been offered as explanation is the bottom of the sex work barrel as an explanation for why all sex work should be looked down upon and shunned. I think it’s a circular argument.
I think the grim side gets ** plenty ** of attention, which is evidenced by what we’ve heard here. The assumption is that prostitution =drug addicted, pimp-controlled streetwalker ending up dead in an alley. Most people don’t have a clue that prostitution, as well as other sex work, can be and is often a freely chosen profession that is experienced as a positive thing. intelligent, educated women with other options can and do choose sex work. in case you hadn’t heard, it pays well and the hours are great!
If we stepped back from our *personal * distaste for sex work (meaning we wouldn’t do it ourselves), and looked with an objective eye at what it is, perhaps we could stop treating it as something so unworthy. Especially prostitution! While prostitutes are patronized by many kinds of men, rest assured that they are the only sexual outlet available for many. They serve a necessary purpose. Why should they be reviled for that?
On top of which… I think the distinction is fundamentally hypocritcal. Until the last 40 years or so in this country, and to this day in many others, marriage was an economic pact. She fucks him, he feeds her and the kids that would inevitably result. I was listening a talk radio host blathering on yesterday about how women are “obliged” to fuck or otherwise “sexually service” their husbands, even through pregnancy, and that if she doesn’t he has a right to cheat or leave her. Because, after all, he’s out there earning a living and asks for nothing else! And he had plenty of callers chiming in to agree. So please, tell me, how and why is simply asking for the cash up front so very different?
Why does adding cash to the mix make it so different? See, if you are of the opinion that swinging is nasty and awful and people shouldn’t do it, while I wouldn’t agree with you, it would make sense that you would disapprove of prostitution as well…the actual behaviors are virtually indistinguishable except for the money part. And I don’t get why money makes the difference.
Well, ok. That’s fine. That’s consistent, and I can respect that because while I disagree, at least it seems logical and fair.
Well, of course not. But I figure if I make an OP that asks, and you choose to participate in the thread…well…gee.
Since I never made the claim that it “arose” from her prostitution. I explained that for them, it was not a bad thing. I also never claimed that other couples would experience the same thing. Nowhere in this thread have I advocated that everyone should indulge in sex work, and in the OP I specifically noted that it is certainly not for everyone. I just wonder why sex workers are so reviled, when I don’t believe they should be. There are lots of professions I find onerous…I don’t hold it against those who do them just because I wouldn’t.
I don’t expect anything. I am an advocate for people taking a new look at the situation, and perhaps they’d find it is not so bad as they thought. I believe that relaxing the hostility towards sex work would be healthy. I do not demand anything, but I do suggest that attitudes such as yours are actively destructive to society by being repressive and unforgiving.
I missed this post, which it turns out I have largely addressed, except:
Human sacrifice harms others against their will. No comparison. Beastiality is wrong because it harms animals, not to mention that dating outside one’s species just isn’t done… But polygamy? Hey, wouldn’t work for me, but it works for LOTS of people, both here and in other countries. Talk to some traditionalist Mormons some time. I think if people desire polygamy, they should be allowed to have it. Aint’ my beezwax.
BINGO!
You think if you sell it you are automatically not “choosy”? I know lots of hookers that would beg to differ. Just because they make cash a condition of the act, that doesn’t mean that anyone with the cash gets in.
There are some of us who feel that sex is one of the most intimate acts that can occur between two human beings. To sell something that is so intimate is something most people are put off by.
**
Oh yeah and you’re real objective. Prostitution is unworthy and it is a disgusting occupation. I know you diagree but that’s just the way things are.
**
Yeah, beyond fucking women weren’t good for anything. But maybe your views aren’t “objective” because your stepmother was a whore. Who knows?
Ha ha ha ha!! One way or the other all women are whores, eh? I love it. You know I’ve already agreed that it should be legal but I’m not going to agree that it is an honorable occupation.
Actually in this case I’ll put the whore on a higher level. After all at leasts she’s getting paid for her nasty behavior.
**
I think you’ve gotten a lot of good answers as to why they are reviled. Especially when it comes to prostitution. You didn’t like those answers so you argued against them using “facts” that came from your mother.
Marc
**
lets see your proof of this assertion that “prostitution…can be and is often a freely chosen profesion…”. Now, I did snip out the ‘other sex work’ line, because it does seem that most of us have not focused on the phone sex worker, stripper etc. I would love to see your proof that the streetwalker scenario is not the norm (that is, that street walkers far outnumber the call girl type).
** Why do you continually believe that those opposed to your view are only opposed because of our ‘personal distaste for sex work’ and not because of a generally held principal? And “only sexual outlet available for many”? are you serious? Masturbation is available to almost all, isn’t it? or are you contending that the great majority of those who utilize prostitutes are unable to masturbate?
So, up until 40 years ago, marriage for love was unavailable? I’m sure my grandparents would have been shocked. You seem to be harshly judging virtually all married people who do not share your views as being simply involved in an ‘economic pact’ where the woman ‘fucks him’ and he ‘feeds her and the kids that would inevitably result’. I would submit to you, that many people actually love their partners. You wish us to believe your dad love(s)(d) your step mom, allow us the same courtesy.
Certainly there are some loveless unions out there, where it does seem to be a trading of some commodity (sex, companionship, whatever) for money. Please tell me why this should be the goal?
Who’s worse? The crack dealer or the junkee? Personally I’d say the dealer ranks lower on the moral barometer.
On this we agree. Of course, I was taught that taking advantage of desperate, lonely people is morally reprehensible.
Provided this poor, sad creature has money in his wallet.
Nooo, I’m not going to have sex with a guy “just to be nice.” Nor will I damage him further by offering him a phony “friendship” that expires that second his credit card does.
I’m not here trying to save the world, Stoid. But, God help me, I’m not trying to make it bleaker either.
I agree that prostitution should be legalized in some areas although I certainly don’t want the trash in my backyard. Nevada has the right idea by designating only specific areas in which it is legal in an attempt to keep places like Vegas from being over run with hookers.
Ya know Stoid, I am sure it hasn’t been your intention, but your comments aren’t winning you any points in your attempt to convince us that we are all missing the warm, snuggly side of prostitution. Yes, having to pay for companionship is pretty sad, but as others have already stated, offering fake compassion as long and the money keeps coming is reprehensible.
If your parents enjoy swinging and feel there is nothing wrong with your mother spreading her legs so every guy with a fist full of bills can wet his dick, then hurray for them. Just stop acting surprised that the majority of people see them as sad, pathetic, people who have basically sold out their soul and dignity for a fuck and a few dollars. Stop pretending that anyone who doesn’t think like you has sexual hang ups.
I have been single for a long time and have enjoyed a rather diverse and open sex life. I love sex. However, there is a thin line when sexual pleasure turns into becoming nothing more than an object to be used by another person for their own sexual gratification. I expect you to come back with more tales from the Happy Hooker, but I can assume that the vast majority of Johns see hookers as nothing but a wet hole. To each his own, but stop trying to convince us that selling ass is anything more than dehumanizing.
Becasue then you are selling something that many people think should not be sold. You are making an activity pursued for fun or procreation into one pursued for profit. You are commercializing sex and reducing it to a business transaction, and many people believe sex should not be paid for because it is too intimate and too important and because the sale of it is very often exploitive – as you yourself admit. Many people – and I am one of them – disapprove of sex for sale, because they believe sex should not be sold. That’s why money makes the difference.
So you brought up the admirable state of your parents marriage . . . why? What is your point there?
Once again, with feeling: Sex work is reviled because (among other reasons):
It cheapens sex by making it a commodity that can be bought and sold.
It provides a counterfeit of intimacy and of a loving relationship which is in fact an illusion and will only be provided until the john maxes out his credit card.
It is almost always a dead-end profession, with no means of improving oneself, no upward mobility, and no honor.
It objectifies its participants, making the hooker nothing more than a pair of tits and a vagina, and the john nothing more than a cash machine.
It is physically, emotionally, and psychologically dangerous (to varying degrees) to both the prostitutes and the johns.
It goes against the widely-held (if not widely articulated) societal belief that the sexually promiscuous lack discernment, self-respect, and morals.
With respect, you have not given me any reason to think it isn’t just as bad as I thought, except for the anecdotal evidence that your stepmother is a prostitute (albeit an extremely high-end one) and is happy. This, of course, in no way proves that prostitution is a good thing, or that most prostitutes are high-end call-girls (when they manifestly are not), or that most prostitutes find the profession as rewarding as your stepmother apparently did.
The hostility you are encountering, to the extent that any of us have been hostile, is not towards sex but towards sex work – more specifically, prostitution. Believing that sex should not be sold does not automatically make one hostile about sex.
BULL-lony! I am “repressive” about lots of things I personally disapprove of – farting in public; going on Jerry Springer; infidelity; drug-dealing; allowing someone to literally lead you around on a leash; and the sale of sex. I have every right to refuse to acknowledge the utility or tastefulness of any or all of these topics, plus many others. And as long as I don’t actively try to stop you from doing what you want, I am not repressing you. Disapproval is not repression. As far as forgiveness goes . . . no one engaged in sex work has ever asked my forgiveness and I don’t know why they would. If this makes me sound intolerant, fine – I can be quite intolerant about things that I think are counter-productive, dehumanizing, and depressing.
How does beastiality harm animals? And what do you mean it “just isn’t done”? I would argue that for many in our society, prostitution “just isn’t done,” either. In attempting to argue that sex-for-money is okay, you face the exact same problem of inherent distaste that you would face if you argued that sex with a German Shepard is okay. In fact, I think a thread on that very topic is already open, and the inarticulate consensus on the subject is “ick.” Many people have that same or similar “ick” reaction regarding sex work.
Yes, I absolutely, unequivocally think that if you sell it, you are, by definition, not choosy – certainly not as choosy as you might be without the business aspect. Every time a john is turned away, it’s money walking out the door, which is an obvious incentive for a hooker to service men (or women) she (or he) would not otherwise have sex with. The only hooker who can say she’s as choosy as your average non-hooker is the one who only accepts money from men she would have slept with anyway, regardless of whether they paid her or not. And I’m sure hookers that choosy are pretty thin on the ground.
I also absolutely, unequivocally deny that prostitutes sever a “necessary purpose.” What, you think if a guy can’t get his rocks off, his head will explode? If a man can’t find a woman willing to sleep with him for free, maybe he needs to explore how he can take care of himself and his own needs by himself.
Once again, with feeling: Because they are selling sex, a commodity that many (most) in our society feel should not be for sale. And they do not provide a “necessary service” by doing so.
Your argument that marriage is in fact a form of prostitution is so specious and, incidentally, insulting to every person in a love-based relationship (married or not), that it does not deserve a response.
I don’t believe I asserted that. There’s a whole lot of streetwalkers…and a whole lot of “off-street” hookers, ranging from massage parlor workers up to top flight call girls. Most do not walk the streets, nor do most command thousands of dollars per night. Most fall somewhere in the middle, as with all things that are available in a wide variety of price ranges. Most people drive mid-range cars, not Beemers and not something ready for the junk heap.
The reason so many people seem to feel that prostitution = streetwalking is simply that the streetwalkers are the most ** visible ** to the average person. That doesn’t make them the most numerous.
A law student named Julie Pearl wrote her dissertation on prostitution which was published in the Hastings Law Journal Vol 38 #4 April 1987. It was titled: “The Highest Paying Customers, America’s Cities and the Costs of Prostitution Control” Her sources included FBI, Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Dept of Justice and various police departments around the country. Guess what… for every 1 hooker you see on the street, 9 others are off-street.
I don’t believe that. But many people have said precisely that. And some people probably have not thought about it much, and perhaps if they did they would realize that what they are reacting to is the idea of doing it themselves, not the idea of anyone doing it.
By this reasoning, none of us should care one way or another if we ever had sex with another person. And most of us very much do. Perhaps not for you, but most people find sex with oneself vs sex with someone else to be very different experiences.
I think you are conveniently sidestepping the truth of what I’m saying here, which is not that no one prior to the last 40 years married for love. Nice try, though.
You said that hookers can be choosy. How choosy can they be if they are the only sexual outlet available for many? I shudder to think what is so wrong with these men that they can’t even pick up the town barfly at the local saloon for a one night stand.
You mentioned that your stepmother became a prostitute after she met your dad. What made her decide to sell her body? Did they need the money? Did she have no other skills? Do your parents have a sexual fetish involving other men fucking your mother? What makes a women wake up one morning and decide to become a whore and what makes a mad willing to accept it. Is it the cash? What?
Are you equating sex with crack?!?!! Wow…that’s unfortunate….
And exactly how is anyone “taking advantage” of anyone else? Are you under the bizarre impression that men who visit prostitutes are some kind of mentally challenged fools that don’t understand what they’re doing? That’s a pretty silly assumption on your part, don’t you think? Not to mention arrogant and rude.
Damage him how? I really can’t believe what I’m reading… tell me PL, do you know any regular johns? I do. They would laugh out loud at what you’re saying here, except for when they’d be offended.
The problem with most of you who harbor all this hostility on the topic (and it is definitely hostility…what is it that is pissing you off so much, anyway?) is that you are coming from a place of ignorance. You do not personally know hookers and their johns. Except for, was it Mgibson?, who sees the absolute worst of the lot – hardly a good cross section from which to form an opinion.
As I told you all earlier, my stepmom wasn’t *just * a hooker. She was and is highly political. (She was even the Libertarian candidate for Lt. Governor here in California). She has headed the local chapter of COYOTE, she has formed a non-profit organization called ISWFACE (International Sex Workers Foundation for Art Culture and Education), she traveled to the International Women’s conference in China to talk about sex work…etc, etc. She is friends with or knows with every hooker and madam you ever heard of and many more than you haven’t. She’s met and talked with hundreds, possibly thousands of prostitutes and other sex workers. As a result of that, I’ve also met many prostitutes. Young, old, still working, retired, male and female. I’ve met a fair number of johns because they have become my stepmother’s FRIENDS.
So I am talking from a place of knowledge. You are all talking from movies and TV shows. I’m not asking you to abandon your personal ethics…I’m asking you to at least recognize that what you think you “know” might not be exactly accurate. Because all you really know for sure is that it involves one person giving another person money for their time and that something sexual will probably be involved. And that’s pretty limited knowledge. Given that, perhaps you might want to think about the topic again – maybe prostitution isn’t * quite * as vile an occupation as you have always assumed?
I’m only asking you to consider the possibility using new information instead of ingrained (and inaccurate) assumptions.
Do you have a page cite? I’m not being a pain in the ass, but I just toddled across the hall and skimmed that article, and I don’t see where it says that.
What it says (its thesis) is that police resources devoted to fighting prostitution would be better spent fighting “more important” crimes, such as crimes of violence. Pearl specifically avoided wading into the debate over the morality of prostitution, confining herself to the question of whether the allocation of resources to fight it can be justified. Indeed, she did not even put forth an opinion on whether or not it should be legal, beyond stating that the cost/benefit analysis of policing prostitution would mitigate in favor of legalization.
As she put it, “Surely this important debate – this tension between notions of liberty and moral restraint – will never be resolved. . . . [While] many Americans may never wish to condone prostitution, the time has come to ask whether we can afford to keep it legal.” (p. 771 and 789)
In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, “I do not think that means what you think it means.”