Why do so many of the people who identify as White have a hard time seeing the racism around them?

[monstro]

@Ashtura

Is he is black? You only specified his gender and then spoke of racial or gender bias.

I think my point has eluded you, but that is my fault. My point wasn’t “I have a racial bias.” It was, “My face expresses what is on my mind without me being aware of it.”

You seem to think that because you don’t consciously think bad things about black people, you aren’t frowning at them any more than anyone else. I am saying that it is possible to both harbor negative thoughts AND make frowning facial expressions without you being consciously aware of either. If we were conscious of our every thought, feeling, and behavior, we would be too distracted to do much of anything.

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[Ashtura]

@monstro

I think my point has eluded you, but that is my fault. My point wasn’t “I have a racial bias.” It was, “My face expresses what is on my mind without me being aware of it.”

You seem to think that because you don’t consciously think bad things about black people, you aren’t frowning at them any more than anyone else. I am saying that it is possible to both harbor negative thoughts AND make frowning facial expressions without you being consciously aware of either. If we were conscious of our every thought, feeling, and behavior, we would be too distracted to do much of anything.

I have no doubt almost every human has given a “negative” look from time to time when somebody they don’t like comes around. Accompanied by a sigh, and maybe an “Oh god” under their breath. I also have no doubt that some humans that are probably not vicious racists might slightly but perceptibly change demeanor when interacting with a person of a different race. It could be a frown, or it could be uncharacteristically friendly to the point of possible overcompensation, which I know I have done from time to time.

[iiandyiiii]

@Ashtura

Well, lately it appears to get the white person on national news and fired. I guess that’s an improvement.

Occasionally (usually not, though), and this is only a very recent development.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@BeagleJesus

You post in a thread about racism in the United States of America, on a message board based in the United States of America and proceed to lecture people who have experienced racism about how we have a “responsibility” to not be offended by racism and how we should always extend the benefit of the doubt to racist people just in case their intentions are benign…and you think simply omitting the word “Black” changes your message even a little bit? You were clearly directing your message toward non-white people. Were black people not included in your paternalistic little speech? Do you think your bullshit is less offensive if you reference any other type of non-white person?

Have we met? Because I think if you’d spent any time with me, ‘paternalistic little speech’ wouldn’t be a take-away.

The way this thread started, nothing I could possibly say as the ‘Trifecta of Racism’ - Old, White, Male - could steer the conversation away from me, personally, supporting the entire blame for all the racism levied against anyone, at any time, in the past.

How would you expect me to respond to that? What could I POSSIBLY DO OR SAY that would sway you? You’ve made up your mind. (hint: That’s racist.)

You don’t know that it’s an important topic to me. You don’t know that it’s something I’ve greatly considered. You don’t know that things that weren’t racist, have been turned and molded into racist epithets, and that I’ve modified my vocabulary to adapt. (hint: Tar Baby wasn’t originally racist. It is now.)

I do find it interesting that what I describe as a zero tolerance policy toward racist bullshit of all stripes you describe as “feeling rage.” I think that is very telling of your attitude towards these types of subjects.

As I said above, there’s nothing I’m going to say to make you less angry at me. And as long as one side or the other feels they’re being treated unjustly, there will be no healing.

Once again, we are talking about the United States of America, where the hell do YOU think most of the racism comes from in this country?

From pretty much everyone but the Zen Buddhists. I’ve seen racism between Hispanics and Blacks and Jews and Whites and Native Americans and Indians and Chinese.

What I have not seen is any of those groups as UNIVERSALLY racist.

And the sake of two-way communication, I would love it if you actually attempted to answer at least one of the questions I have posted above instead of assuming facts not in evidence. Is this too much to ask?

Here’s your question I’m answering:

@BeagleJesus

And how the hell am I lumping all white people in one pot, by assuming that the vast majority of racism comes from white people?

Because the Vast Majority of Racism is not a White monopoly. It’s not a universal trusim. And it’s not nearly the thing it was.

So long as you feel that way, you’ll miss the people that aren’t.

I get the feeling that people think it’s not enough that people stop being racist, things won’t truly be better until the races that were historically downtrodden get to do the same to the races that did it. This is the one thing I fear, because there are no winners down that path. There’s just more pain.

[Ulfreida]

@Unintentionally_Blank

<snip>
I get the feeling that people think it’s not enough that people stop being racist, things won’t truly be better until the races that were historically downtrodden get to do the same to the races that did it. This is the one thing I fear… <snip>

And right there we have the money quote.

Every racist fears that those they oppress will exact revenge commensurate with the injustice.

Every sexist secretly fears that women, if given the opportunity, will do violence to men equivalent to the violence done to them.

That fear is the beating heart of oppression. Always has been, always will be. They can’t imagine that what the vast majority of oppressed people want is simply an equal chance.

[asahi]

@puddleglum

What is the point? What power does a white person have over a black person by dint of their race? None that I can think of. and I take it by your non response that you can’t think of one either.

I think you’re operating on the assumption that we are simply a nation of individuals, and you’re thinking in terms of one individual relative to another. I don’t view that as an accurate way to describe race, because the way that racism has always functioned is through sheer power that a members of a group have.

Even during the 19th Century when slavery was very much a part of American life, there were actually free black individuals who had more money and status than some poor white farmers in some parts of the country. But it would be absurd for obvious reasons to use these examples as evidence to show that white people somehow didn’t have power over black people.

Today the power that white people have is less obvious, but it still exists. As was alluded to up-thread, most CEOs are white. Most people with power in this country are white. By virtue of their race they have closer access to these people. They can form social networks with powerful people more easily than blacks. You can argue that laws and attitudes have changed, and I won’t disagree with that. But as someone like Trump reminds us, whites still have enough power to change the rules if they are determined to do so.

[asahi]

@Ulfreida

And right there we have the money quote.

Every racist fears that those they oppress will exact revenge commensurate with the injustice.

Every sexist secretly fears that women, if given the opportunity, will do violence to men equivalent to the violence done to them.

That fear is the beating heart of oppression. Always has been, always will be. They can’t imagine that what the vast majority of oppressed people want is simply an equal chance.

Money quote indeed.

[Bone]

@asahi

Racism is defined as the discrimination directed toward a group or groups of people based on the belief that one’s own race is superior. I don’t see how a person of color complaining about attitudes and behaviors that he encounters from time to time reinforces the belief that his race is superior; rather, it’s an attempt to stand up against perceived affronts by the ethnic group that actually holds the power. Just because you’re white and someone says something negative about white people doesn’t automatically make the statement “racist”. Racism isn’t just words; it’s power. It’s ideas, rhetoric, and action that reinforce power of the dominant social, economic, and political group, which in the United States is white people.

That doesn’t mean that blacks absolutely can’t be bigoted or that they can’t be offensive. Nor does it sanction any and everything that a person of color says or every idea that he has.

I reject your definition of racism. It seems to ignore the fact that a person of color can act in racist ways, or actually be racist themselves. I acknowledge that power as a necessary component of racism is a valid definition, but it’s not the only one.

[iiandyiiii]

Bone, you never did respond to my post #269 – do you care to? Here it is again (with your preceding post):

@Bone

That sounds great, just like a Hallmark card. I absolutely believe that unconscious bias exists, but on an individual level it’s essentially unfalsifiable.

@iiandyiiii

Possibly. This is deep in the realm of what individual humans are thinking (and sometimes even beneath that), and we don’t really have anything close to scientifically accurate to make these determinations factually (much less existing nebulousness about what these concepts mean exactly). I’m just encouraging folks to consider that this sort of bias might exist, and that they are not immune to them. Do you believe that you might have some of these sorts of biases, unconsciously? If so, do you sometimes explore your own thoughts and actions to try and eliminate them? Is it possible that your children might be picking up things from broader culture and society that could instill these sorts of unconscious biases in them? Do you teach tehm about these concepts and why they are negative? That’s really all that I’m asking on this particular aspect of the issue. Doesn’t that seem like a reasonable thing to advocate for?

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@Ulfreida

And right there we have the money quote.

Every racist fears that those they oppress will exact revenge commensurate with the injustice.

Every sexist secretly fears that women, if given the opportunity, will do violence to men equivalent to the violence done to them.

That fear is the beating heart of oppression. Always has been, always will be. They can’t imagine that what the vast majority of oppressed people want is simply an equal chance.

Nah, you’re missing the critical distinction (possibly on purpose)…I WASN’T THE PERPETRATOR OF THE CRIME.

I might as well ask you if you still beat your wife, senator. It’s a false equivalency.

But never ever in the history of the internet has anyone’s opinion changed. I sure as hell am not going to say “Hyuck! Golly, that must be me!” Nope. Not gonna do it.

Let’s take a left hand turn, though. There’s been a fascinating article on the manipulation of opinion in social media. You can watch the whole tamale, I’d recommend it…but the real quote…the one that resonates with me, and why I think this particular Great Debate is bothering me so is here:

Why are people mean on Twitter? - Smarter Every Day 214

Do I think the Russian Internet Research Agency is in this thread. Pfft. Naw. Do I think there’s a SOLID nudge to conflate US with THEM? Yes. And that won’t ever make it better.

So are we going to continue to debate? Because there is no set of words, in any order, that will convince you that I, Some Random Guy on the internet isn’t Racist.

[puddleglum]

@iiandyiiii

It’s not the ability to call, it’s what happens afterwards. Calling 911 on a black person substantially increases their chance of being harmed or killed in a way that it doesn’t for a white person. At least, unless you think most black people are lying when they describe their experiences with law enforcement.

The ratio of men killed by cops to women is over 18-1, does that mean that men are oppressed and women hold power over men and thus men can’t be sexist?

A vanishingly small percentage of innocent people will be harmed by an interaction by the cops as a result of a 911 call. If that tiny percentage is a little bit higher for black people that in no way means that white people as a group or as an individual has power over black people.

[puddleglum]

@asahi

I think you’re operating on the assumption that we are simply a nation of individuals, and you’re thinking in terms of one individual relative to another. I don’t view that as an accurate way to describe race, because the way that racism has always functioned is through sheer power that a members of a group have.

Even during the 19th Century when slavery was very much a part of American life, there were actually free black individuals who had more money and status than some poor white farmers in some parts of the country. But it would be absurd for obvious reasons to use these examples as evidence to show that white people somehow didn’t have power over black people.

Today the power that white people have is less obvious, but it still exists. As was alluded to up-thread, most CEOs are white. Most people with power in this country are white. By virtue of their race they have closer access to these people. They can form social networks with powerful people more easily than blacks. You can argue that laws and attitudes have changed, and I won’t disagree with that. But as someone like Trump reminds us, whites still have enough power to change the rules if they are determined to do so.

We are a nation of individuals, definitionally the nation is made up of individuals. If the vast majority of individuals in the nation loved mustard and hated ketchup then there is no way that the nation could be described as loving ketchup and hating mustard.
You seem to be anthropomorphizing races.

In the 19th century it is obvious that certain white people, slaveowners, had power over certain black people, slaves. That white paddyrollers had power over slaves who were trying to escape or move freely. That white bosses had power over black employees, etc.

At least 99% of white people will never meet a Fortune 500 CEO, do you really think a white person could get a meeting with a CEO just because they are white? That is delusional. How does have close access to a CEO provide one with power?

[Bone]

@iiandyiiii

Possibly. This is deep in the realm of what individual humans are thinking (and sometimes even beneath that), and we don’t really have anything close to scientifically accurate to make these determinations factually (much less existing nebulousness about what these concepts mean exactly). I’m just encouraging folks to consider that this sort of bias might exist, and that they are not immune to them. Do you believe that you might have some of these sorts of biases, unconsciously? If so, do you sometimes explore your own thoughts and actions to try and eliminate them? Is it possible that your children might be picking up things from broader culture and society that could instill these sorts of unconscious biases in them? Do you teach tehm about these concepts and why they are negative? That’s really all that I’m asking on this particular aspect of the issue. Doesn’t that seem like a reasonable thing to advocate for?

I’m sure I have unconscious biases. I’m 100% comfortable with my attitudes and behavior - if I wasn’t, I’d change them.

Teach kids to treat people fairly and respectfully? Yeah that’s covered. But that’s a lot different than what this thread is about. Many posters are fine with things that they would not be if the races were changed. Personally, my first test to evaluate if something is racist or not, is to change the races involved and question if the outcome would be different. I think a lot of the conversation around white people in this thread would fail that test.

[Kimstu]

@Bone

Personally, my first test to evaluate if something is racist or not, is to change the races involved and question if the outcome would be different.

In this thought experiment, do you also change the historical relationship between the races involved, reversing the roles of traditionally privileged and disprivileged? Because if not, I don’t think your thought experiment will give an honest answer.

[Bone]

@Kimstu

In this thought experiment, do you also change the historical relationship between the races involved, reversing the roles of traditionally privileged and disprivileged? Because if not, I don’t think your thought experiment will give an honest answer.

If it matters in context, sure. But a lot of the time it doesn’t. Believing that a group of people possess a characteristic based on their race is racist and there is no historical context that will change that.

[Kimstu]

@Bone

Believing that a group of people possess a characteristic based on their race is racist and there is no historical context that will change that.

Uh, sure it can. Believing that a group of people somehow innately and immutably possess a certain characteristic may be independent of historical context. But believing that a group of people in particular historical circumstances are more likely to have a certain characteristic is definitely dependent on historical context.

For example, saying “White Americans tend to be touchy about the topic of persistent racism in the US” is attributing to a group of people a characteristic based on their race, but it’s not independent of historical context, and it’s not a racist statement.

[Bone]

@Kimstu

Uh, sure it can. Believing that a group of people somehow innately and immutably possess a certain characteristic may be independent of historical context. But believing that a group of people in particular historical circumstances are more likely to have a certain characteristic is definitely dependent on historical context.

For example, saying “White Americans tend to be touchy about the topic of persistent racism in the US” is attributing to a group of people a characteristic based on their race, but it’s not independent of historical context, and it’s not a racist statement.

It’s also meaningless. Black people tend to be touchy about the topic of persistent racism. Native American people tend to be touchy about it too. Asian people, Hispanic people, just about everyone is touchy about it.

[Kimstu]

@Bone

It’s also meaningless.

I don’t think so, or it wouldn’t generate so much defensive pushback against concepts such as “white fragility” in discussions of racism.

[monstro]

@Bone

It’s also meaningless. Black people tend to be touchy about the topic of persistent racism. Native American people tend to be touchy about it too. Asian people, Hispanic people, just about everyone is touchy about it.

They are all touchy about it in different ways. Can you at least concede that?

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[iiandyiiii]

@Bone

I’m sure I have unconscious biases. I’m 100% comfortable with my attitudes and behavior - if I wasn’t, I’d change them.

Teach kids to treat people fairly and respectfully? Yeah that’s covered. But that’s a lot different than what this thread is about. Many posters are fine with things that they would not be if the races were changed. Personally, my first test to evaluate if something is racist or not, is to change the races involved and question if the outcome would be different. I think a lot of the conversation around white people in this thread would fail that test.

I think you might be missing a lot of the baked-in historical contexts in these discussions. “Changing the races involved” doesn’t work when the scenario involves far more than just race.