Sounds like some school districts have been sued for allowing purely private prayer at high school football games, doesn’t it? Obviously, this would be a gross violation of the First Amendment. But wait, don’t get outraged yet - this article is simply a pledge to defend any school districs that might in the future be sued.
This to me is exemplary of an attitude I’ve encountered from many fundamentalist Christians. They claim that this country is “Anti-Christian” and moan about how persecuted they are for their faith. I think this attitude is contrary to all evidence, and frankly it seems more like a political ploy than anything else.
It’s easier to get your congregation to make those contributions when you whip them into a frenzy over Madalyn Murray O’Hair’s supposed petition to take “Touched by an Angel” and any other show mentioning God off the air, or over non-existent lawsuits against schools that allow private prayer on their grounds.
There are a few passages in the Bible which claim that people “will” persecute you and that you should not waver in your faith. This manifests itself into actually feeling you ARE being persecuted, even if it’s not the case. After all, the Bible SAYS you’ll be persecuted… sigh
I got into HUGE arguments at LBMB about this. I offered links showing REAL persecution - such as Christians arrested in Islamic counties for praying together - but it didn’t matter. Some of them STILL felt as if the liberal media, the ACLU and the Supreme Court were all persecuting them somehow.
One of them is here now, actually… I wonder what this witness will say to this thread…
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, three weeks, two days, 18 hours, 16 minutes and 31 seconds.
5830 cigarettes not smoked, saving $728.81.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 6 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes.
you see, IMHO, the sort of thing that fundies MIGHT be complaining about is embodied in the title of the thread. “why do some Christians …” I know that you’re attempting to single out only the ones like the Assemblies of God folks who seem to get into a tither anytime some one wants to allow elementary school kids trick or treat at the school, but, again, IMHO, many people of many different groups act in this manner, percieving any challenge as persecution.
For example exchange the words in your title to: Why do SOME gun rights supporters persist with their disingenious persecution complex" regarding gun laws? or “why do Some gun control supporters persist with their disingenious persecution comlex” regarding the NRA?
So, while I may be able to think up more examples of certain Christian religious groups acting in this manner (because it bugs the hell out of me, too), it just may be that I’m more prone to noticing their offenses because of my beliefs, and not because they actually do it more often than other groups.
in short, it seems to me that the Christians, fundementalists or not, do NOT seem to hold the margin on perceiving dissention to their position as persecution.
What is more disturbing isn’t that they consider dissension to be persecution, but that they consider being forbidden to force their religion on a public school to be persecution.
Some Christians (to say nothing of religions about which I know nothing) feel that by suffering, enduring, bearing and allowing this sort of thing (all from patior, a verb some Christians, in my mind, use and follow entirely too much), they will grow in their faith with God. What they don’t do is fight it.
Some say “I am enduring this for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” They don’t say “and I’m trying to do something to make it stop.” They don’t try to make it better for themselves because they see it as making them holier . . . that their suffering will bring them closer to Christ.
And wring, FWIW, I didn’t think the title of the thread or the OP was trying to single out any one Christian. There are Christians of all denominations who do this, IMHO. No one denomination does this. It takes all kinds, and we’ve got 'em, by golly!
This is, FWIW, my opinion as a Christian who has seen “persecuted” behavior. Sometimes they seem (to me) to want to be persecuted. Others they think it is because they are of X religion. In my experience. YMMV.
I wasn’t trying to say that demonination or some other one. Sorry if the intent was unclear.
My point was that it may be that the OP’er percieves more Christians doing that, because of their own personal stance. Example - I tend to see Republican tendancies to saying one thing and doing another (ex Newt talking about family values :rolleyes: ), than I do when the Democrats do the same thing. Because I tend to tend more towards the viewpoint displayed publically by the Dems. So, perhaps teh OP’er sees the Christians doing this more because of the OP’er’s own view point aligns more closely to those the Christians are claiming to be persecuted by (please grammarians, give me a break…) Ok? see? to quote myself "it just may be that I’m more prone to noticing their offenses because of my beliefs, and not because they actually do it more often than other groups "
No kidding. When he says HUGE he ain’t kidding they were HUMONGUS!
You did and I know the persecution is not nothing like what happens in Islamic countries but I(we)(them) still feel like it could be the start of persecution that could come about from it which as your first paragraph explained very well I might ad.
Man, did you spill “witness” instead of “witless” right when it came to me. This new you is kinda of freaking me out. Not that I mind it. It is just different.
As far as getting real deep into the topic at hand I am too tired. It is Friday. And I have had to do alot digging around today with trying to work to support a thread that people wanted cites for. I’ll give it to you straight dopers y’all take y’alls debating pretty serious around here.
BTW, Satan are you married yet?
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, three weeks, two days, 18 hours, 16 minutes and 31 seconds.
5830 cigarettes not smoked, saving $728.81.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 6 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes. **
[/QUOTE]
a character from Saturday Night Live, played by Gilda Ranier. She would go off on a rant (for example about “violins on tv”), getting all upset over something that she’d misunderstood, then some one would correct her, she’d pause and say “oh, that’s very different. Nevermind.”
It struck me as the thing to say when I saw you putting forth the same sort of issue that the OP was claiming. (percieving and calling relatively slight issues as persecution, much like folks saying “it feels like I’ve been raped” when they really mean “I wasn’t treated well”).
**[ul][li]Slippery Slope.[]The Bible says to stay faithful in the face of persecution (something I agree with, by the way). Not to invent it out of whole cloth.[]If you are correct about end times, you WANT this to happen because “it is written,” according to how you feel.You WANT this to happen so you invent things to fit into your own “prophesy.”[/ul][/li]__________________
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, three weeks, two days, 20 hours, 0 minutes and 31 seconds.
5833 cigarettes not smoked, saving $729.17.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes.
And I(we)(they) are afraid that the mandating of school prayer, the dilution of fact in the science classroom, and the posting of religious text in secular settings could be the start of persecution against non-Christians.
Makes you think, doesn’t it? I mean, you know you’re not persecuting those who do not agree with your beliefs, right? . . .
This persecution complex seems to be a symptom of what I call lifeboat christianity. People are told to rush into the arms of the church and be saved from the hell-fire-and-brimstones reserved for those who aren’t part of the elect. These people then cluster together in some kind of mutual admiration society to pat each other on the backs for being smart enough to avoid having to think for themselves ever again, and pitying the unsaved for their blindness. I’m sorry to say it, but the phenomenom would seem to be more prevalent in the U.S. than most other places. In light of which, it doesn’t really surprise me to see that a good number of intelligent Yanks are atheists. I really don’t understand why God gave me a brain if He didn’t want me to use it.
I myself am a Christian, and have never felt “persecuted.”
I have maybe felt a little annoyed when people say, “Oh, those Catholics are all nuts/bigoted/pro-life,” etc…
But I think that’s just natural. It wasn’t anyone telling me I had to give up being Catholic, just people using a stereotype.
However, I dont’ think anyone should compare themselves to the TRULY persecuted (for example, Holocaust survivors…)
First andros I did not say we are being persecuted now did I? Yes people fun of us and try to make us feel uncomfortable but that is no biggy compared to real Christian persecutions in other countries.
Now on to you brian. This thead is going to take us back to the good ole days huh?How is what I said slippery soap? I will use an example for you. How about assault weapons. At one time you could own an AK-47 without a permit or any govt regulation couldn’t you? Now you have to pass all kinds of criteria and obtain all kinds of permits to own one. So inotherwords it is harder to get automatic weapon now than in the past. Did they(big brother) do that all at once no they did it a little at a time. See?
A slippery slope is when you claim that if you do something, it will enevitably lead to something else even though there is no proof of this.
Any time you say “feel like it could be the start of…” as you did, you are not debating the issue, but possible outcomes, which is an unfair way to debate since you avoid discussing the issue itself. (You can use that as a layman’s definition of a fallacy - a fallacy is anything you use to avoid discussing the actual issue itself.)
You are not debating the issue of, say, organized prayer in public schools, by saying “if you ban it, it will lead to us being persecuted.” You debate the issue at hand: organized prayer in public schools. On its own merits. Anythign else is unfair - to the person you are debating with and the issue itself.
It seems, however, that there is no debate on this particular issue. You claim that maybe in other countries, Christians are persecuted, but not here in America. And I agree with you about that.
Yer pal,
Satan
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Four months, three weeks, two days, 22 hours, 25 minutes and 22 seconds.
5837 cigarettes not smoked, saving $729.67.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes.
Well, let’s face it: here in the USA, NOBODY is in danger of life and limb for ANYTHING they say or believe.
Obviously, ANY American who complains about persecution is talking through his hat. St. Peter was crucified upside-down, and St. Stephen was stoned to death. Find me ANYBODY in the USA suffering that way for his beliefs, and I’ll take the word “persecution” seriously.
Problem is, when you live in such a safe country, you don’t feel grateful for the realtive safety and comfort you experience. On the contrary, we Americans (of every and NO religion) have it so good, we become like the Princess in that Hans Christian Andersen story- even the TINIEST inconvenience seems like an unbearable agony.
Ancient Roman Christians would have been DELIGHTED to live in a country where the only restriction was "Say your prayers in your own homes, but not in public.
Then again, Jews in Dachau would have been DELIGHTED to live in a place where the worst torture they’d have to experience was listening to Christian prayers at high school football games.
I don’t think ANYBODY appreciates just how good we have it in America. Instead, we retain memories of REAL oppression in other places, and assume that it’s likely to happen again here!
Whether you’re a Christian or a non (anti?) Christian, lighten up! This is America. We have it made!
Well, Astorian, in St. Lawrence County, New York (named after the river), there is a small Catholic seminary and, among other things, a large university, also named after the river.
St. Lawrence U. is a largely academic school, with a small sports program. Some years ago they did get involved with intercollegiate football.
The sportswriter for the local paper had attended the seminary but dropped out. When SLU lost one football game abominably, he headlined the story:
Doesn’t anybody have anything against the new Pagan with the persecution complex? (Not that I do… I just think it’s funny.) I mean, someone actually posts here, saying “Look how persecuted I am!” and you’re talking about Christians. I find that odd.