“Do not assume contradictions where non exist.” — the Borg Queen
Forget for the moment that a phone call to the school listed on a job application does not cost “thousands” of dollars. But if it did, why would it cost any less for a school with a sign that says “PS 181” than for a school with a sign that says “Mr. Smith’s Private School”?
Regarding this weird logic train:
Huh? And a bureaucrat allowing your child to read what he finds familiar and comforting is better because…?
Really? I mean, I agree with the sentiment – certainly true within my own family – but is this always so? And how are you/we going to define “better”?
One would think that persons of any religious persuasion would recognize how fortunate they are to live in a country where they are free to practice their religion, in private, as they see fit; and free to engage in this kind of public discourse so long as they respect the rights of others to do the same. Sometimes we (the people, the religious, the goverment) may disagree about the best way to balance all of these concerns, but at least we are free to discuss it, and to disagree if we like. Isn’t this living better than those who have gone before? The framers of the Constitution certainly thought so.
My maternal ancestors came to this country from Ireland, during a time when the Irish were reviled. No, I am no equating this with religious persecution per se. I am simply making the point that I recognize and appreciate the fact that I live better than my great-grandparents did.
And for that I am very grateful.
Basically, I think the word “persecution” is bandied about entirely too much, without regard to whether its meaning is truly applicable to a given situation.
yes, if we accept that it is some christian groups but I think it is just human nature. Many groups are held together by a perceived persecution or outside threat, not only Christians but feminists, blacks, pro abortion, anti abortion, extreme conservatives, extreme liberals… they all share a feeling the other side is about to get them unless something is done about it. They find comfort in each other and reinforce their own beliefs.
Sounds like you are saying that the purpose of public school is to override the wishes, values and judgement of the parents, in favor of those that some other entity has deemed to be “better”. I think this attitude goes a long way in answering the OP.
And isn’t it ironic? I mean, isn’t that the basic premise behind the supposedly Christian belief of “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? The simplest of philosophies, and yet people just can’t grasp it. If you don’t want people to lie to you, steal from you, rape or murder you, then don’t lie to, steal from, rape or murder them. If you want people to respect your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, then respect their thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If you don’t want people to talk shit about your religion, don’t talk shit about theirs.
That’s one of the things that has bothered me about organized religion for a long time: they take simple instuctions and pile layer after layer of complicated qualifications and ritual on top of it. I’m glad Weird Earl’s recently featured Atheists for Jesus, and I’m gladder still I found out about the World Union of Deists. I take comfort in the fact that one can believe in God and the teachings of Jesus without having to swallow everything that’s fed you.
Actually, it does. Although you are the only one bringing up the term “better.” Although you might misread “those whose knowledge surpasses our own” as “those whose knowledge is better than our own,” slythe is arguing for a broad education. In other words, “those whose knowledge surpasses our own” refers to scope, not quality. In the instance of fundamentalists who believe that Bible=Science, I would argue that both are true.
“Overriding the wishes, values, and judgement of parents” is not the function of the public school system, unless of course the parents wish to keep their children ignorant. Only someone with an overdeveloped persecution complex could truly believe that. Plainly put, the school properly rejects favoring any religion, or religion over nonreligion. That is all SOCA amounts to here. You are free to worship whomever you like, and free to hold beliefs from paganism to scientology and nobody cares as long as you keep it out of the schools.
I find the fact that some fundies feel persecuted simply because they can’t force their religion on others to be not only sadly ironic, but pathetic.
Ptahlis,
You appear to be confusing two issues. One is what is to be taught in public schools. The other is what the purpose is in having schooling be a function of the government altogether, as opposed to the private responsibility of the parents. You addressed the first issue. Slythe was responding to Libertarian, who addressed the second.
Ah, but don’t you see: for some fundamentalist groups, ostentatious evangelism (read: riding rough-shod over the values of other people) is required. Therefore if they are not permitted to do so, they can cry that they are being denied the free practice of their religion. It is a very convenient argument.
And not one I support, mind you. I’m with Gr8Kat on this. I was taught that it is un-Christian to be intolerant or disrespectful of the beliefs/thinking/feelings of other people. No one ever said that was the same thing as agreeing with them.
Who are you? You are quickly approaching mentor status with me, though I have seen only a couple of posts. Forgive my nosy inquiries, but where are the other fifty or so, so that I may seek them out to read them?
Much of modern education theory is based on the work of educator and theorist John Dewey.
Dewey was a consummate humanist. (NTTAWWT.)
Humanism is a system whose premises put it at odds with Christianity.
Ergo, Christians in the public schools are fed to a greater or lesser extent a mental diet based in humanist thought, which contravenes their values and wishes.
It may not be the best argument, but it’s an argument. 
*Originally posted by slythe *
I couldn’t pass this one up either. Like the gov’t can raise our kids better than we can. Great they can all grow to be like our illustrious leader Slick Willie. And they can learn how to dodge bullets and how to disarm a pipe bomb before it goes. Come on slythe what the heck are you on? Your whole concept is bull.
I personally think public schools should be done away too. Private schools will be better than public anyday. That way a parent can send his children to a school that shares the belief of the family be it Jewish, Athiest, Muslim, Christian or whatever the parents see fit. Not the gov’t the gov’t doesn’t know how to run itself much less teach our kids.
At least bring back the vouchers. Oh I forgot Gore doesn’t like them he thinks he and his stupid cronies can do a better job of raising and teaching your kids than you can.
Just click on the little search icon at the bottom of the post, Lib, if you want to see all of someone’s posts.
But Izzy, all the government requires is that the children be schooled. The only choice removed is that of willfully keeping children ignorant and uneducated. The parents are free to home school, or send the kids off to a private school if they wish. The government’s role in providing schools is to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to receive a minimum (depressingly minimum in some instances) education regardless of personal circumstances.
But Izzy, all the government requires is that the children be schooled. The only choice removed is that of willfully keeping children ignorant and uneducated. The parents are free to home school, or send the kids off to a private school if they wish. The government’s role in providing schools is to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to receive a minimum (depressingly minimum in some instances) education regardless of personal circumstances.
Your final sentence suggests that you do not agree with slythe, and would respond to Libertarian differently. That’s fine. I was responding to Slythe.
Well, nothing like a little hyperbole to spice things up, eh Bill? As said before, you have every right to take your kid out of public schools and home school them if you wish. You can send them to private schools if you like. So long as they can read, write, and do basic math you are pretty much covered. If you want to feed them a steady diet of the teachings of Xorkon the Space Poodle, you may do so. The government has no interest in raising your kids. They will educate them to some degree if you like, but then again, it’s your choice.
Pipe bombs and bullet dodging may very well be a factor in some of the worst schools out there, but of course you are characterizing the whole system by the bottom of the barrel example. I could just as validly note that children receive far more formalized instruction regarding explosives and weaponry from those little militia group campouts that gun nuts and the religious right are so fond of. Neither statement is particularly fair.
Ok. Although I do not disagree with slythe at all. When I say “minimum” I mean that there is a bare minimum that must be provided, not that minimum is the aim.
Your statement is slanderous and categorically false. What religious right groups have demonstrated any fondness for militia groups? Unless you mean Branch Davidians and the like. I think not.
Exactly my point Izzy. I was replying to Wildest Bill, who said: “Great they can all grow to be like our illustrious leader Slick Willie. And they can learn how to dodge bullets and how to disarm a pipe bomb before it goes.” That’s how he categorized public schools, and I said that it was as valid and fair as my statement above. Wildest Bill hardly demonstrated any schools that instruct students in the fine arts of spin doctoring, guerilla tactics, or bomb disposal either.
I guess it’s not enough anymore to just disagree with how public schools are run. They must be demonized, condemned and abandoned. They are not teaching that different sexual orientations exist, they are “promoting homosexuality!” They are not teaching that there are different cultures out there with different religious beliefs, they are “teaching humanism or satanism!” They are not teaching kids how their bodies work and how to avoid certain situations and even diseases, they are “telling kids to go out and have all sorts of deviant sex!”
I am sick and tired of people who are incapable of having simple disagreements. We now demonize government, politicians of the wrong party, public schools, people of the wrong sexual orientation, etc. ad infinitum.
While I realize that blind hatred is much easier to handle than trying to learn about a situation, I always expect the best from the SDMBers. If people like Wildest Bill would other to go to school board meetings, instead of taking the easy way out, the schools might improve.
IMHO, of course.