Swearing is correct English. Incorrect English is anything that miscommunications your intent.
“There was all kinds of stuff all over the place.” This means the guy is not upset about the stuff and just wants to describe what was in the garage for whatever reason.
“There was all kinds of garbage all over the place.” This might mean that there was actual garabage that people would want to throw out.
“There was all kinds of shit all over the place.” This might mean that there was too much stuff (or too much useless stuff) and the guy is not happy about it. This is not the same as regular stuff or garbage. If he said garbage you would think he wants to throw the stuff out or get rid of it. Shit implies that he still has to figure out what to do with the stuff and that it is an unpleasant task. What else can convey that meaning? Really nothing conveys anger better than swearing.
All you are saying is that some people are bad communicators. Do you want to get rid of the word “like” because often people don’t use it right?
I’m down for code switching. I swear a lot when I’m more relaxed with people, as long as they’re swearing back. Once we’re both swearing together, I know where we’re at. If we’re both still using proper “work” english and keeping our swears to ourselves, I’m not having as much fun. It’s a subtle, or not so subtle if it bothers you, signal of the level of ease the conversation should be at. I like it.
But even though I swear like a sailor when I’m in a relaxed conversation with some friends (I’ve been known to Take the fucking piece of shit to the fucking place and deal with it fucking later), swearing in a typical “polite” conversation jumps out at me like a strobe light. Even sitting with my buddies in McDonalds where there are other people around, I know not to swear, and when they swear, it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard. The code hasn’t switched in that environment.
To address the example ITR champion gave, I would totally say that there was a bunch of shit in the garage.
A) It feels casual, and if we’ve switched into the casual chummy code, it feels a lot more natural than saying something polite.
B) The word, combined with my tone, expresses my disatisfaction at the objects in the garage.
C) Conversation isn’t about efficiency, and if I’m trying to bullshit with someone about this garage I saw, I don’t want to blow my load in the first sentence. I want to be vague and lay out this unpleasant scene, knowing full well that saying there’s shit in the garage will lead to a quick followup “Oh yeah?” followed be me saying “Oh, you shoulda seen it. Garbage, car parts, blow up dolls, a whale’s vagina,” etc etc. If you go around being perfectly precise and efficient all the time, you probably end up having a lot of awkward conversations that end up with your hands in your pockets watching the clock tick by.
No no, there’s nothing lazy about it.
Are you referring to your second sentence, perhaps? :smack:
The problem is that a lot of people use the word “shit” when they really mean “stuff.” So I don’t think that your illustration necessarily applies. Indeed, the OP was lamenting the indiscriminate use of swearing, which kinda underscores my point.
I’m gonna have to disagree with you on those points. Since when did swearing become the ultimate means of expressing anger? If anything, I think it’s the easiest way to do so – not necessarily the most effective way. In fact, since a lot of people toss around the f-word and s-word at the drop of a hat, regardless of their emotional state, I’d say that makes profanity a decidedly less effective way of expressing anger.
Is profanity a good way to express anger? Certainly. Is it the best, the ultimate, the most effective way? Only for people who lack imagination.
I swear more than I like to admit. It can be merely a habit, and I know perfectly well that a woman my age saying “fuck” isn’t really appropriate. And I don’t like my boys to swear, it sounds dreadful to hear an 11 year old call his brother a “fucking bitch” when they are squabbling. WTF?
But one thing puzzles me: people with Tourette’s Syndrome often swear uncontrollably. Why? Why don’t they use other words? Why cussing? I knew a guy with Tourette’s, and that’s his “tic”: swore in a steady stream, seemed to go on for ten minutes at a stretch. I’ve read that it’s quite common.
I’ve had people tell me that it’s only in English that words for body parts and sexual/excretory activities are “swearing”. That real swearing is taking the lord’s name in vain, or saying, God damn. In Quebec it used to be pretty severe swearing to say “tabarnaque!!!” In Norwegian, it’s “faun!!!” (devil) - you use it the way an English speaker would use “fuck!!!” (Maybe faun isn’t spelled right.)
I also read somewhere that the worst thing you can call someone in China is “a turtle”. Is that true, I wonder?
Just because people use the words wrong, doesn’t make them bad words. Words are tools used to convey meaning. Swear words are really effective at conveying anger. So what if people misuse them?
Alright. So you come back from the garage upset about all the stuff in it. How would you express your anger about the situation?
Would you agree, at least, that not all communication is equally effective? That it’s possible for me two think of two sentences you would understand, but that are not equally good? Would you acknowledge that some sentences are more precise, elegant, and memorable than others?
Consider a person responding to a movie they did not like. They might say:
Or they might say:
Both communicate and are understandable, but the first is much better than the second. The first has precise meaning that demonstrates thought. The second is a blast of negative feeling without reasons.
It would, of course, be possible to express quality thinking with profanity, and poor thinking without it. However, it’s not likely. The profanity-packed dialogue that many people use these days is naturally suited for emotions and not for careful logic and aesthetics.
Irrelevant. I did not say that they were bad words. Rather, I was addressing the very specific claim that “Shit implies that he still has to figure out what to do with the stuff and that it is an unpleasant task.” In today’s society, it often does NOT have that meaning.
Slo what if people misuse them? You really don’t see a problem with that?
Besides, I did NOT (repeat: NOT) dispute the claim that swear words can effectively communicate anger. Quite the contrary; I agreed with that assertion! I was, however, disputing the statement that they are the ultimate, the best, the most effective way to communicate anger. I see no reason to accept that claim, especially when people routinely use these very same words in casual, non-angry conversation.
One could launch a litany of insults against whoever caused the mess, or whoever created the stuff. One could wish the longest and most painful of torments on these people, their parents, and their progeny. One could describe the way one wants these people to be hung by their entrails, run through with fiery hot pokers, and forced to consume their own vomit. The list goes on.
I daresay that would be a more effective – and far less ambiguous – way of communicating anger than to say “This is all a bunch of shit!”
Lakai, in discussing the use of profanity to convey anger, you said, “What else can convey that meaning?” With all due respect, I daresay that if a person cannot thinks there is no other way to convey the depths of his anger, then this is a reflection of that person’s limited imagination and linguistic skill rather than any fundamental limitation of the language itself.
This is worth repeating.
I’m not arguing that people should never swear (though personally, I wish they wouldn’t). Rather, I think it’s foolish to say that swearing is the best, clearest, and most effective way to express one’s self. Most of the time, it isn’t.
This applies to literally everything anyone anywhere has ever said. There is no optimal use of the English language. What is clear, meaningful language to you is hopelessly obtuse to someone else.
Furthermore, language has vastly more use than simply transmitting messages from one person to another. 90% of what we say is used for effect, style or to frame a nonverbal message.
If you don’t speak the dialect, sure, you’ll be left with the impression that someone who curses frequently is a poor communicator. But you’d be wrong. You simply caught part of their message and the rest got lost in translation. Swearing is not simply the domain of the ineloquent.
It reminds me of some black people I knew who would switch from “white people English” to Ebonics when they clocked out and started hanging out with all their black friends. Their white coworkers hated it. I knew a bunch of Caribbean (Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, etc.) soldiers in the Army who would switch to Rastafarian accent when they got together. The fact is people have different dialects and often times (gasp!) they will be different than yours. You just have to deal with it, instead of stubbornly butting your head against reality.
Which brings me back to my very first post:
Their environment and upbringing is different than yours. They really should make an effort to speak your non-swearing dialect, but for many it is uncomfortable to change their speech patterns. Also, it is a pretty common dialect. I assume pretty much anyone in my age group, outside of a professional setting, is okay with my cursing and will understand my message. Occasionally that is an incorrect assumption, but it doesn’t imply that my language is impoverished and poorer than yours just because you don’t like the way I talk.
It isn’t to you. That is a reflection on you, not them. If I don’t understand what a Frenchman says to me, that means that I don’t understand French, not that the Frenchman isn’t being clear and effective. If he wants me to understand him, he should switch to English. That doesn’t mean that speaking French is wrong.
Swear words do insult a specific group, specifically the people who don’t want to hear them. They do, obviously, carry a lot of baggage. People can use swear words with the intent to insult. People can use racial slurs the same way. People can use swear words casually without intent to offend. People can use racial slurs the same way. But the campaign against the n-word assumed that it was harmful regardless of intent.
A further similarity comes from the fact that both types of words are often used with the pretense or rebellion against some imaginary authority. Some people think that profanity somehow strikes a blow against snobbishness, and some think that racial slurs strike a blow against political correctness.
I think your analogies go too far. Speaking French or a strong dialect isn’t analogous to swearing in English. It’s the use to which the language is put, not the language itself that counts here. Some confusion can arise when using swear words (and, indeed to many other imprecise iterations) because they often are used as ‘blanket’ words. ‘Fuck you’ is a imprecise blast, used with strong feeling to express distaste of a particular action. It would be more accurate to specify what caused that reaction. The precise response may be not as satisfying or be able to put across the strength of feeling, though.
I want to emphasise that I in no way disapprove of the use of swear words in certain situations; they serve a particular use for the swearer, but the meaning can be inaccurate.
Another benefit of swearing that is often wasted is in the misuse of gradation of the words chosen. Some people’s level seems to set at ‘fuck’. Used too often, it can sink to an ineffective level; familiarity breading contempt, and all that.
Well, you got my intent, right?
Despite my defense of swearing above, I do agree with this point. Swearing loses its effect unless it is something exceptional.
Another case in point:
I attended BYU for a few years while getting my masters. Although I’m not Mormon, I lived in the dorm for a year and later shared an apartment with Mormon roommates. While there, I generally adhered to a lifestyle in keeping with the requirements of the university. No alcohol, no caffeine, etc. In that context, however, I could act out a little rebellion and feel like quite the badass just by running to the convenience store and getting a big Diet Coke. Or buying a latte at the airport Starbucks. Same thing goes for swearing. A little could go a long way.
I obviously disagree. By my reckoning, everyone speaks a ‘dialect’ unique to themselves. The degree of similarity between my dialect and yours is roughly the degree to which we will be able to communicate. It is gradual, not discrete. “Language” is simply a useful dividing line delineating a group of similar dialects that encompasses an entire culture or nationality. But I’m not a linguist. Perhaps one will come along and correct me.
Most cultures have a generic “proper” dialect that everyone can understand and speak in mixed company. But if someone curses around you, they either mistook you for someone who speaks like them, or they don’t really care about getting their entire message across, as long as you get the general idea.
First of all, language isn’t about accuracy. It isn’t for anything really; it is simply a useful socialization tool we’ve evolved. Accuracy is important in certain situations, but certainly not all. There are many, many more uses for language than accurately conveying a message.
Secondly, just because you don’t understand the nuances in a particular speaker’s ‘swear vocabulary’ doesn’t mean it lacks accuracy to him or others who speak like him.
I disagree that swearing is intended to be offensive or rebellious. Most of the time, they’re not even meant to shock. Regardless of how swearing originated, nowadays the truth is exactly backwards. People are offended by swearing precisely because they don’t understand the message and aren’t familiar with its modern use. People who swear do it because that’s the way they’ve always done it; that’s just how they talk.
That’s a false analogy and you know it. We’re not talking about situations wherein people are using unfamiliar words or grammar. Rather, we’re talking about situations wherein words are used indiscriminately, thereby robbing them of their impact and the ability to accurately communicate shades of meaning and emotion.
As rivulus and others have said, the problem lies in the indiscriminate use of this language. If you routinely use the word “shit” to mean excrement, something detestable, and just plain stuff, then the word loses its impact. Far from enhancing accurate communication, it simply serves as a barrier.
This problem isn’t merely limited to profanity, BTW. The problem exists even within polite language. For example, I knew a graduate student who routinely described software designs as “good.” His use of the word may have been accurate, but it was imprecise. A more effective communicator would be more specific, describing the designs as elegant, or efficient, or perhaps highly maintainable. The descriptor “good” lacked those nuances of meaning, and its indiscriminate use only aggravated that problem.
That’s why it’s a cop-oput to say that profanity is an excellent means of communication. It’s only advantageous if used sparingly. When used indiscriminately, it blurs the distinction between truly aggravating circumstances and minor annoyances – or worse, the humdrum routines of life.
I don’t have much to add to what DrCube said, other than this:
There’s no connection between profanity and a lack of clear thinking or unintelligibility.
If you’ve got an example of a discussion of careful logic and athesthetics that was derailed by profanity, please share. Otherwise this sounds like a “kids today” type of generalization.
Because it’s frigging fun, gosh darn it! :mad:
So, no one should ever swear because there might be someone around who doesn’t want to hear it? Um, no, that’s not how it works. You do not have the right to freedom from offense. Swearing is just a tool: it serves a purpose, and might be misused.
But in each case the intent is obvious. Yes, swear words can insult. Big deal, so can normal words. Should we ban any word that can insult? If you get rid of all swear words people will just make more. It’s part of the English language, regardless of whether you like it or not.
I don’t see how you can claim that swear words have the same baggage that racial slurs do. In the middle of a crowded bar, drop something heavy on the floor, and in one instance yell ‘Fuck!’, and in another yell the n-word. Lemmie know which one generates the most negative response.
And some people think that wearing black, getting a stupid haircut, and wearing lots of eyeshadow does that same thing. I don’t automatically go deducting 50 pts off their IQ cuz I don’t agree with them. I save that for after they’ve tried to read me some of thier poetry. Different people do different things, get over it.