Offending someone and insulting them are different things. If you walk past someone who yells “Oh, shit!” after dropping his coffee, you might be offended, but it’s ludicrous to claim he has insulted you.
I didn’t actually read all of this thread, but, as the daughter of Nine To The Sky, I can say that it is very odd to see Dad swearing so much 
People misuse words all the time. That does not say anything about the utility of those words.
It all depends on the situation. Curse words won’t work in every situation, but there are some things you can’t express without them.
So I have to bring out the Shakespeare when I get mad about all the crap in the garage? It’s far more efficient for me to use the word shit to get my point across. I also think that if I don’t curse people would take my anger less seriously.
I still would like it if you could come up with a direct example of conveying anger at the garage situation. Write at least one sentence. I’m having trouble imagining anything that could be taken as serious anger.
I can see now why you think it would be lazy. I guess not cursing would be harder and therefore more imaginative. That still doesn’t take away the utility of curse words. It also doesn’t mean people should strive to convey anger without cursing. Cursing is a perfectly acceptable method.
You can also be more imaginative with curse words. Here is just one example, from Deadwood ;):
*
Al Swearengen: I got a healthy operation and I didn’t build it brooding on the right and wrong of things. I do not need the Pinkertons descending like locusts. So I bend over for the tenderfoot cocksucker. Reconnoiter your claim fully, I say. And then, if you’re still unhappy I will give you your fucking money back. And the tenderfoot agrees. Just as he’s finishing his reconnoiter, cocksucker falls to his death, pure fucking accident. But up jumps the widow in righteous fucking indignation. Wants the doctor to examine him for murder wounds. My visions of locusts return. I see Pinkertons coming in swarms.*
See: any Kevin Smith movie.
You’re dodging the question. You honestly don’t see a problem with misusing words?
Besides, as you know full well – and as I’ve stated quite emphatically – I am NOT arguing that profanity amounts to misusing words. Rather, I am taking issue with your specific claim that profanity is the most effective way – indeed, the only way – to convey a certain level of anger.
You keep saying that as though repeated assertion amounts to evidence. It doesn’t.
No, and if I had made such a claim, your objection would have some merit. I did not though, which is why I’m disappointed that you’re now resorting to gross hyperbole and strawman argumentation.
You asked me how one could express outrage the stuff lying in one’s garage without resorting to profanity. I provided several suggestions, each of which was more precise and more emphatic that describing that stuff as “shit.” Obviously, this is not the same as saying that one needs to trot out Shakespeare whenever someone wishes to express anger or outrage.
You keep missing that point. As I have reminded you several times now, I am addressing your very specific claim that profanity is the most effective way to express anger. Several other posters and I have already explained why this is not necessarily the case. We have pointed out that profanity is LESS effective, precisely because it is less specific than more precise language would be. We have also pointed out that its indiscriminate use makes it even less effective.
In response, you keep saying that there are times when profanity can be effective indeed. Interestingly enough, I don’t see anybody disputing that profanity CAN be used to convey emotion. That’s why I keep reminding you that I’m addressing the claim that it is the most effective way to communicate anger. That claim only holds water for those who can’t be bothered to be more specific and creative.
It may not be the most effective way to to communicate anger, but it’s the most natural way. That’s why swearing is a part of every language, as I pointed out above.
Ed
Misusing words is bad communication. What does this have to do with swearing being effective in certain situations?
Are you saying that in all situations cursing is not the best way to communicate anger? What I keep repeating is that in some situations, anger is best expressed with curse words. I keep repeating it because you keep arguing as if we are talking about all situations where anger is expressed.
I was just making the point that expressing anger shouldn’t be too complicated. Should I have used a lesser writer? What level of imagination do you want people to pursue?
To illustrate my point about different situations lets take your example. You come home and say “the people that messed up the garage should be hung by their entrails and forced to consume their own vomit.”
If you’re just a middle class Joe, do you think people will take this as an expression of serious anger, or just playful frustration? When you get that creative with your anger it loses it’s force. Sometimes simplicity can be much more powerful.
However, if you were someone who would actually hang people up by their entrails and feed them their own vomit, then people would take that expression very seriously.
Joe’s situation would require curses to get his point across, the second situation would not.
And if someone were to make that claim, I would have no quibble with it. I’m not absolutely convinced that it is the case, since I think that swearing is a habit that we tend to develop, but I certainly wouldn’t dispute it. As you correctly pointed out though, that’s entirely different from saying that it’s the best or most effective way to communciate anger.
And Lakai, based on your latest reply, I think it’s clear that you’re continuing to conflate these issues. You can argue all you want about how a “middle class Joe” would express anger, or that doing so should not be complicated. None of this supports your assertion that profanity is the most effective way to communicate anger, though.
Here’s a hint: There’s a big difference between what’s easy or natural and what’s most effective. Obviously, swearing is easy. Obviously, for a lot of people, it comes naturally. Let’s not pretend that it’s the most effective way to convey anger, though. “Easy” is not a synonym for “effective.”
BTW, Lakai, this is now the umpteenth time that I’ve reminded you that we are discussing your claim about profanity being the most effective means of communicating anger. The most effective. Not the easiest, and not the most natural for middle-class America.
If you can’t stick to the topic and express yourself accurately, then I don’t see why we should take you seriously when you make claims about effective usage of the English language.
What don’t you get about there being different kinds of situations with anger? Where each situation would require different words to get the anger across most effectively. This is not exactly what I said originally, but it is what I’ve clarified my position to.
I admit cursing is not *always *most effective, but it is in some circumstances.
I strongly disagree. “Nigger” is no more offensive to a black person than “cunt” to a woman, “motherfucker” to the church elder, or “cockbreath” to a gay man. There are certainly swearwords that don’t have their origins in insult or intentional offense (“shit” for example), but swearing exists to offend people.
You start out disagreeing with my main points, but end up saying the same thing I do: swearing is a habit that lazy people can fall back on when they can’t think of the right word.
Obviously, that’s not it’s ONLY use. We have to look at cause and effect. I’m not saying that use of profanity implies poor vocabulary or lazy language habits. There are times when I’ll think for a moment and decide consciously that “bullshit” really is the best word for the circumstances. But most of the time it isn’t.
But I think it’s obvious to the most casual observer that there’s a correlation the other direction. Unless they’re specifically trying to be inoffensive, people with poor vocabularies and lazy language habits are more likely to swear.
I think everyone who has heard the idiot in the bar say, “Oh, yeah? We’ll you’re a cocksucker!” would see the correlation.
Again, I’m not saying that smart, eloquent, polite people don’t swear. But I am saying that it’s much more common among people with poor vocabularies, lazy speech habits, or intent to offend.
YES! Swearing is a tool. And tools have side-effects. Just as my table saw creates sawdust, profanity creates offense.
Swearing in public is just like carrying a loud “ghetto blaster” on your shoulder in public. It’s primary purpose may not be to annoy those around you, but that’s what it’s doing. You’re right that people have no constitutional right to not be offended or annoyed. But one of the things that makes a polite, civilized society is that we don’t go out of our way to annoy and offend people.
Ok, there are words that offend people, alert the press. There are swearwords that don’t offend people, and there are people who are not offended by swearwords. It’s all context and intent. For example, the words you used do not offend me because of both the context and intent. You can make innocent words sound bad depending on how they’re used, should we not be able to use any of them too?
Sometimes.
Swearing in public is like carrying a loud ghetto blaster only when it’s excessive in some way, too loud or long or inappropriate, etc. And that’s misuse. I’m for all for curbing misuse. But saying ‘shit’ when you drop something and break it or hurt your foot is not misuse, and I contend that a person offended by a simple and appropriate swear is too think skinned or is looking to be offended.
I absolutely do not agree with you here, and never said anything remotely similar to this.
Swearing is a result of our backgrounds, yes; in that way it is a habit. But it does not indicate laziness or a small vocabulary. In fact, I can’t even begin to understand why you would think that, except for simple prejudice. Do you have anything substantial to back up this claim, or is it something you pulled out of your ass?
Its ‘obviousness’ not withstanding, does anyone here have one iota of evidence or reasoning that correlates work ethics, intelligence, or vocabulary size the use of profanity?
It’s this that really seems to have polarized people. To me, it’s blindingly obvious that people with lower intelligence use swear words frequently. I just have to walk around town, and almost exclusively it’s the lower intelligence/class people who swear, either in the aggressive sense, or the meaningless, just inserting the swear word in to the sentence way. They use swear words very frequently. On the other hand, more intelligent people use swear words very infrequently and for a specific purpose.
This is not to say that only, or all, lower class/intelligence use swear words, or that the opposite true. It’s just that, in my life experience, it seems to be the case.
I don’t know why I (and other people) swear. But that answer also applies to most things I do. Something feels appropriate and so that’s what I do.
There are 10 billion reasons why something feels appropriate or not, and I don’t worry much about the “why” unless there are easily seen consequences for my actions… positive or negative.
So, that’s my answer to the OP’s question, but about the other issues under discussion:
Swearing is akin to joking. It may not be the most direct way to comment on something, or the most readily understood, but it lets you say things that can’t otherwise be easily communicated… and both joking and swearing can demonstrate creativity and ingenuity and make people laugh.
And they can both be overdone. Anything can be overdone.
Like vison I’ve wondered about what makes “swear words” so uniquely attractive to people with Tourette’s. I suppose there’s a part of the brain that stores things under a “taboo” label, and that for some reason the TS afflicted have that stuff leaking out.
…and I thought the OP’s “lazy” adjective was unproven and sounded prudish.
I never thought that the word ‘lazy’ would be the one thing that seems to have been to be picked up on so much. But I still stick by it. Others have supported it, so I think it has been proven to a degree. I really don’t agree with the prudish tag (but I wouldn’t, would I? :)) because my objection has never been to complain about its use to express pain, anger, frustration etc, but when it’s inserted in to sentences when it adds nothing to the meaning or to what the speaker is feeling. I have explained this several times above.
Hello Mr. NTTS,
I’m not bright enough to read through the thread and remember the refinements made to your position, so I’m just addressing the OP. For the most part.
“Lazy” got picked up on, because it was a derogatory term in the first sentence. You were asking why people did something and also telling them it was lazy. (Bad lazy swearing people!!)
And then you gave an example of the meaningless of swear words, that shows no such thing:
The “fucking” absolutely changes the meaning of the sentence. It conveys a completely different feeling than, “I went to the shops today to buy a sandwich.” IMO, the first version will be used to convey exasperation in the vast majority of cases, rather than simply describing an itinerary.
Toward the end of the OP you stated (or wished) “we should be above that sort of shorthand. Erudition is all, eh?”
So, sometimes swearing adds nothing, and other times it’s too concise? But it’s either way it’s definitely lazy and something we should rise above?
You know, that sounds kinda prudish.
If you had just written that sometimes swearing can be repetitive to the point of boredom, I doubt anyone would disagree with that, but if you want to contend that swearing has little conversational value and can’t be wielded in a creative and entertaining fashion… I don’t think you’ll get much agreement with that.
Except from the prudes, of course (insert winking smilie.)
But does using swear words indicate that the person who is using them is lazy? I don’t think anyone is taking issue with the idea that lower class people swear more often, just that swearing indicates laziness in all cases.
The reason I think more lower class people swear is that it is more acceptable in their cultures. The smarter people have figured out that if you want people to take you more seriously, you can’t curse. Things aren’t likely to change. No one even cares to debate what’s PC anymore. If it has a chance of offending anyone, chances are it won’t be allowed in an upper class business. Since cursing often expresses anger, it’s not very useful in a business environment. So there is little point to fight for your right to curse.
The way people interact at work then influences the way people interact in their neighborhoods and you have less curses all around. It’s not intelligence that stops people from cursing, it’s just the unwillingness to fight a taboo custom.
Umm…I am the OP.
My understanding is that OP can mean either “original poster” or “original post.” In this case it meant the latter.