Why do we swear?

Great Debates
81

By my definition profanity conveys emotional information without conveying factual information. Useful in certain circumstances, not so useful in others.

“I got a fucking ticket today for doing shit.” Fucking conveys frustration at the ignominy of the situation; doing shit conveys virtually nothing. What were the charges? What were you really doing? Where were you? What happened?

We use all-purpose group words all the time. A herd of cows, for instance, is often not a [singular] herd of all-female bovines. A car park (as the British say) has more than cars in it. A coat closet holds more than coats. Going out with the guys doesn’t necessarily mean we will be spending the entire time out of doors in an all-male crowd. We use words that properly and concisely convey our meaning without pedantry.

You want accuracy? The phrase “a bunch of shit in my garage” would most accurately be rephrased as “some detritus in my garage consisting of replacement parts and maintenance supplies for my sedan, organic refuse from the house, empty wrappers, food bags, paint cans, tools, a bag of dog food, aluminum cans to be recycled, gardening supplies, a broken lawn mower, and some mouse shit.” But “a bunch of shit in my garage” conveys the sentiment nicely and concisely. If there is some particular shit in the garage toward which our attention should be drawn, that is up to the speaker to specify.

You could think of a dozen examples yourself in no time at all. If you reject profanity because it is imprecise then surely you reject other words for their lack of clarity. In fact, the word profanity technically means words which are profane, that is to say, characterized by unholiness or contempt for God, but we have expanded its definition to words which are merely uncomfortable or impolite, like “fart.”

I read an interesting statistic that suggested men had a larger vocabulary than women (on the average) but men used their vocabulary prescriptively. Words had one or two meanings. Women, by contrast, had a slightly smaller vocabulary, but used words very flexibly in context. (Anybody who has ever heard a woman say “I could just kill my husband!” knows that she doesn’t mean it literally.)

When it comes to profanity, I agree that there are often better ways to communicate factual data: what happened to me, how do I feel about a subject. Details, information. I just don’t see there’s any way to entirely remove profanity from our language. So long as we are subjective, emotional human beings there is always a place for subjective, emotional language.

82

The more I think about this, the more I think that this whole swearing = lazy argument is not only wrong, it’s really constructed out of thin air when people try to rationalize why they’re bothered by words that they know damn well they shouldn’t be bothered by. <— that was lazy because I wanted to end the sentence and didn’t care that it was with a preposition.

A) There’s a bunch of shit in the garage.
B) There’s a bunch of stuff in the garage.
C) There’s a bunch of objects in the garage, broken car parts and the like, that displease me.

C is clearly less lazy than A or B, but if I said B, nobody’s gonna say that I’m lazy. Nobody will say, "boy, he’s so lazy, why didn’t he think of something to say other than “stuff?” My meaning has been conveyed, and that’s all anyone cares about. But if I say A, suddenly I’m lazy? The hell? No, really you’re just bothered by swear words because you have a child-like mind that can’t get over the fact that what your parents taught you (swear words are bad) is wrong and meaningless, but instead of coming to grips with that, you think it’s OK to call me lazy for not using your baby-language. “There’s a bunch of doodoo in the garage” is just as “lazy,” but it doesn’t offend your childhood innocence, so you’ll let it slide. That’s all this about it.

ETA: I should have read Fish’s post before I typed all that, he sounds smarter than me.

83

What do you mean? The original poster posts the original post, right?

84

Uhh… it was a small point relevant to my exchanges with NinetotheSky between posts 75 and 80.

I remarked that my comments were responding to the OP rather than any refinements in his positions made in subsequent posts. He responded saying, “Umm…I am the OP.”

My comments were regarding the points in the Original Post, rather than with all points made in the thread by the Original Poster.

The reason I was doing so, was that I wasn’t clear on exactly how his various exchanges with Marley23 and others had modified his original comments in his Original Post…if at all. But I did have things I wanted to say about the Original Post.

Crystal clear?

85

How can swearing be less accurate or whatever than the words they are replacing. How is “there was a lot of shit in his garage” any different from “there was a lot of stuff in his garage.”? It’s the same thing!

Anyway, I love swearing!

For me the appeal is hyperbole. Something in me thinks that hyperbole is just the most hilarious thing in existence. When it’s mildly cold and someone says “It’s like Antarctica in here” I laugh my ass off. And so I think it’s really pretty funny when people cuss, especially if it’s done in an understated way by people who are normally quite calm and in situations where it’s just completely uncalled for.

Indeed. I already know what my last words will be. I’ve had quite a few brushes with death (usually on third world public transport) and every time I’ve seen my life flash before my eyes I’ve let forth a simple, quiet, understated “Fucking A.”

So I see cuss words as a great tool to play with. Words are just words. All words have meaning. In the hands of a skilled speaker, cuss words can be a fun and powerful tool.

Class =/= intelligence. You really can’t tell someone’s intelligence just by walking past them.

86

You’re assuming that the listener knows that “shit=stuff” in the speaker’s mind. Nothing in this phrasing automatically sugggests that, though. None of the verbiage tells you if the speaker is talking about stuff that’s mildly annoying, stuff that utterly reprehensible, or just plain “stuff.”

Again, I’m not arguing against the use of profanity. That’s a whole nuther debate. I just think it’s foolish to think that swear words are just as precise or accurate as the words they are intended to replace. They aren’t, especially since the same bits of profanity are used in casual contexts, at times of mild annoyance, and in the depths of fury and hellfire.

87

Are you being precious?

I never knew that word had a negative connotation, but then I noticed you are from the UK.

What is its meaning there? “Goody 2 Shoes”?

Thanks

Q

88

Not precisely, no, but you can make a pretty educated guess based on appearance and speech patterns, including swearing.

ETA: By speech patterns, I mean accent, context an’ stuff like that.

89

Yes. What is its meaning for you?

90

I really don’t know how many times I’ve got to keep saying this. The type of swearing I was equating with laziness is described in the OP and posts nos. 13, 24, 29, 74 and 76.

I absolutely love the use of shit in the oft quoted example. It expresses both emotionally and factually what the user wants to get across.

(At this point, if this wasn’t GD, I would be using swear words to express my frustration at my inability to get my point across.)

91

Well, I live in the American south, and when we use it, it’s meant as a compliment - usually to a child, i.e. “Isn’t she just precious?”

Different strokes, yes?

:slight_smile:

Quasi

92

Just like I assume she know what I mean by “bunch” and “garage.” We all assume our listeners have a basic grasp of the common usage of the language, or at least the ability to infer what unknown words mean.

Well yeah. Exactly. Neither does the word “stuff.”

Indeed, sometimes it can be very effective to be imprecise. Using “shit” or “stuff” in a sentence like this implies that you don’t know what that stuff is, and opens the listener’s mind to contemplate the variety of things that might be this garage. Specifically, it invites the reader’s mind to wander to the kinds of stuff that the speaker might not want to name outright. It can be a very effective way of communicating the idea that “there is stuff in the garage and I don’t know or even want to contemplate what those things might be.”

Another example of accuracy in swearing- insults. An asshole is oh so slightly different than a douchebag. A bitch is different than a cunt. Indeed, we don’t have good alternative words that describe these things as accurately as the cuss words.

93

And you know this, how? Do you random people on the street IQ tests? Or are you referring to the Harvard study where they found people wearing baseball hats or whatever you judge people on do worse in school? Does my IQ change on weekends, when I trade my business-casual teacher togs for fishnet and punk rock spikes? Or does that IQ change come when I meet a fellow American and switch from a neutral business English to the faster and slangier California English I grew up with? Well, my English is pretty good, but I speak French with a broad west African accent and west African speech patterns (“c’est comment toi, ehhh?”). How does that reflect on my intelligence?

And pray tell, which accents do dumb people use?

94

Well, I know what I mean, and I still think I’m right, but even my daughter thinks I’m talking rubbish, so I’ll drop this line as either incomprehensible or indefensable.

95

The words “bunch” and “garage” are decidely less ambiguous than “shit” is. And even if they were not, the point remains that you have to make a possibly incorrect assumption about what “shit” means in this context.

Look, if you want to defend the use of profanity, feel free. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that these swear words are just as accurate as they words for which they substitute. They aren’t.

Granted. However, the word “stuff” carries no negative connotations, whereas the word “shit” is. If you don’t have any disgust for the stuff in your garage, then it’s the more accurate term to use. In contrast, if you refer to your stuff as “shit,” then you are using a phrase that provides multiple possible interpretations, thereby making your statement less precise.

Of course, but that’s not what you were saying a moment ago. Earlier on, you said that profanity is no less accurate than the words for which the substitute. I will heartily agree that there are times when imprecision is preferable, but this does nothing to support the claim that foul language carries no loss of linguistic precision.

96

Hello again Mr. NineToTheSky.

Your original post contended that swear words are okay as “escape valve” interjections, but they are sometimes used as meaningless filler, and other times as lazy shorthand.

(I’m imagining an example where someone posts about a new godawful political outrage and another poster responds, “Fuck this shit. I can’t take it anymore.” You, Mr. Sky, would rather see a more detailed, less generic, reaction.)

Is that an accurate summary?

And here are the additional elucidations you mention:

I’ve mostly said my piece already, and it condenses to:
Some of the things you see as meaningless are not.
Yeah, it’s possible to repeat anything too much.
I don’t see swearing on the SDMB as overdone.

And lastly, you mentioned a recent thread full of swearing that you found off-putting.
Link, please?

97

Again:

And just like every other word in the English language, yes, you have to assume the listener knows what it means or can glean it from context if you want to be understood.

This is true of every other word in our language. Do you speak a different language in the depths of fury and hellfire than you do in casual contexts and times of mild annoyance?

And why is accuracy the defining characteristic of well-spoken people? Why not creativity or emotion? Why not different things in different situations, maybe?

98

I’m sorry, but I keep on repeating myself: no, I wouldn’t in that situation. It’s an excellent way of expressing your anger.

I’m afraid, as before, you’ve got me confused here. But if I understand you, I agree.

Here, in post 138. There is at least one thread discussing this thread and that post.

99

We use swear words because they are words in the language, and sometimes they are the correct words to convey the exact meaning we want. And, using the right word for the right thing is a major component of good writing, no? So, if I really want to call someplace a shithole, that’s a totally different meaning than calling it a dive, dump, or cesspool. There should be no substitution when the actual right word is available.

That’s why, when our kitten was gnawing on a book last night, I called her “bibliophage”. Our daughter wondered why I used such a lengthy word, and I explained because it is the correct word in English to describe a book-eater. And, sometimes Damn, Shit or Son-of-a-Bitch are the most correct words in specific situations too. Different words, even ones with similar associations, have subtleties of meaning which cannot be substituted. Access to vocabulary should not be limited by artificial limitations like “good” and “bad” words because sometimes, “bad” words are crucial for the situation, character development and/or realistic dialogue. Cf. Holden Caulfield’s distinctive voice.

And to me? It’s no less intelligent to use these dastardly words than it is to jettison them outright because of some weird restriction basically based on Judeo-Christian repression.

100

I think we have different definitions of accuracy at work here. If we want to accurately express what is in the garage, then profanity won’t work. If, however, you want to express what you are feeling after you’ve come back from seeing the garage, then profanity is more accurate.

There is no loss of linguistic precision if you use it correctly. If you come back from the garage and don’t remember what is in it, but you’re still angry, “shit” is the more precise term. No one will be sure what is in the garage, but that is not the message you want to express. You don’t really know what is in the garage so you can’t describe it. You just want people to know that you are mad and there is a lot of stuff in the garage that you don’t like. For that message, “shit” is more accurate.