am I glad I am married. No more terrified stabs at humor with some bored girl at some noisy bar where you couldn’t hear yourself think
Guys, let’s remember something, OK? Men are bigger and stronger than women.
I’m 5’3". Most men are a 6 inches to a foot or more taller than me. They’re stronger than me. It is very easy for you to appear to be a physical threat to me, whatever your real intentions are. It’s not YOUR fault, it’s the fault of evolution and the minority of really creepy men out there.
So, first of all, don’t get too close. If you meet a woman in a bar or some other situation DON’T back her into a corner, DON’T get too close. If you’re on a train, bus, or plane don’t sit in the seat next to her - especially if that blocks her “escape route” - sit in the seats behind or in front. This is a subtle body-language thing, and it’s amazing how many guys just don’t get it. If you start the conversation from slightly more than arm’s reach she doesn’t feel trapped. If she’s interested, she’ll move closer. If not, she won’t. And if she gets up and walks do NOT follow because then she will be convinced you are a stalker or rapist.
See, from the time we hit puberty we women are deluged by comments from men. It has nothing to do with us thinking we’re some fantastic hot looking thing - even ugly women get hit on. And it happens all the damn time. I can’t go to a laundromat, grocery store, or a mall without some uninvited attention. It gets in the way of getting done the things that need to be done. I like sex, yes, but I also like clean clothes and buying food to eat.
Too many bad experiences, guys - times when we say “no, we’re not interested” and the guy won’t take no for an answer - maybe even backs us up against a wall or otherwise physically intimidates us. Too many times being followed home, wondering if the yammering horny guy is just desparate and clueless or intent on raping us. Too many times because accused of being a tease just becuase we’re visibily female. Too many times being viewed as nothing more than walking vaginias, sex-dispensing machines, and protruding tits.
I like to flirt - really I do. But I don’t flirt with guys I don’t know, because I don’t know how they’ll take it. I have to feel safe around the man or men, I have to feel I can trust them not to hurt me. I have male friends I flirt outrageously with, and the sexual innuendos fly freely. But it’s guys I can trust. And there are other male friends I have I don’t do this with, because I know they’d be made uncomfortable or, because some of them have women troubles, it would be just downright cruel.
See, that’s the problem with the average guy “hitting on” a woman - he doesn’t know her. He doesn’t know what makes her comfortable or uncomfortable.
Want to start a conversation with a woman? Say something like “You look nice”. Notice and comment on her shoes rather than her bustline. If she’s reading a book ask her if you can see the title. If it’s something you can comment intelligently on, do so. If it’s something like a romance novel say you’ve always wondered why women like them so much - could she explain that to you? Act like you have a brain as well as a dick. We already know you’re horny - you’re a guy, right? - so you don’t have to advertise that little fact. If you meet her in an unsual situation - say she’s your car repair person - ask her how she got interested in it.
If something crass does slip out and she’s offended apologize. Yeah, I’ve had guys blurt out “Nice tits!” or “Wow, you’re hot!”. If you do something that jerky take a step back (body language again - you’re giving her space and making it clear an attack is not imminent), and say something like “Aw… gawd, that’s SO STUPID, I’m sorry. You probably think I’m a jerk.” Well, yeah, but at least you’re a polite jerk.
I don’t really have a good answer for you guys. All I can say is that the minority of complete scumbags has made it tough for the decent guys.
So, would, “Hi, my name is robertliguori, I find you attractive and wish to get to know you better,” count as a cheesy pick-up line or not?
It all depends on the context.
Here’s a scenario which happens to me occasionally: I’m at the gym. I’ve been at work all day, and I want to de-stress and sweat a bit before going home. A guy comes up and starts chatting me up. He seems nice, but I don’t want to talk to him. I don’t particularly want to talk to anybody. But I don’t want to be rude to this guy, either. So I converse non-commitally, all the while thinking, “Leave me alone!” It’s more than a little annoying.
As Broomstick pointed out, there are times when you just want to wash your clothes, pick up groceries, etc., without having to make inane conversation, remain civil, and simultaneously send out “not interested” vibes.
I know this comes off harsh, and most of the people who do this do seem like nice guys, but it gets frustrating.
For me, as several other people have stated, it has to do with timing, approach – and the basic fact that – surprise! – I’m not on this planet looking for a man/looking for sex as my primary purpose in life. I have a life,and a pretty decent one; someone who comes along and acts as if I should be flattered and overwhelmed that HE, he-male-manly-type, has expressed interest in me, is a nuisance.
That said, Broomstick covered a lot of the essential points. Lamia brought up another one: not every woman is interested in men. And of the women who are interested in men, some are in relationships, some aren’t looking now, some aren’t looking for X (for any value of X that you may be).
Context has a lot to do with it as well. If I’m doing laundry, hitting on me with a clear indication that sex is what you want is likely to annoy me. If I’m in a club, listening to a band and obviously getting into the music, trying to chat me up over the music, will only convince me that you’re a clueless dweeb.
And (suddenly I’ve turned into a help-guide! gack!), if I say “No thank you,” or don’t express interest, pouting, sulking, or calling me a bitch, or ugly, won’t impress me more, and won’t impress any other woman in earshot.
I think a lot of guys that use these pick-up lines, or who are very up front about what they are interested in are taking the swing-for-the-fences approach. This is a type of behavior I see some guys attempt. I had a friend who was a perfect example of this. They would hit on any and every girl they found attractive, no matter where they were. From the sheer volume of women they propositioned, eventually they would hit paydirt with that 1% of women that wouldn’t run off screaming. However these relationships were often very short-lived as they would quickly find out that they were two very different people who had a lot of conflicts.
One of the problems I have is approaching women period. This is because I specifically don’t want to be lumped along these pick up line guys. And also fear of rejection, which I’m not really afraid of, but I’m so used to being upset by rejection its kind of just conditioned me not to approach women I’m attracted to. If I become friends with a woman she will very quickly like me as a friend, which is difficult for me becasue I always develop a romantic attraction to female friends.
I guess it all boils down to women are more picky about who they go out with, because they can. There are many men that are out to get as much tail as they can get, and have to employ different tactics. As for me, I kind of stopped trying to get into relationships. Its not something I can accomplish when conciously thinking about it, and I’m not insanely lonely being single. If I never met anyone for the rest of my life, I wouldn’t be too bothered. But if I did get in a relationship, it would be nice. Either way.
What I hate: guys who say really cheesy, obvious things. I was shopping for a snake for a Halloween costume, and this guy offered to show me his. That’s not going to work, duh. Guys who don’t leave you alone after you’ve made it clear you’re not interested; a guy this weekend told me he liked my skirt about 7 times, each time progressively drunker. That’s not going to work either.
What I like: a guy who finds something meaningful to talk about. Doesn’t have to be about the meaning of life (though, if you can pull it off, go for it). Just someone who actually wants to make conversation, who seems interesting in his own right, who doesn’t focus on the physical. I will talk to ANYBODY for at least a few minutes, even someone to whom I’m not remotely attracted, if he seems intelligent and respectful.
The challenge, then, is to think of something bright to open with, to separate yourself from the hordes of idiots who want to show us their snakes. You will at least get a decent (if perhaps brief)conversation out of it from any woman who is not a total bitch.
Knowing when to walk away is key, though. She may just be talking to you out of politeness; when the conversation is ending, go out gracefully. You can ruin a nice convo with too much persistence and then, it’s weird, and you’re one of the hordes again. This, however, is a good rule of ANY social interaction, not just hookin up.
One caveat: at the gym. I don’t say NEVER try to talk to someone at the gym. Try, by all means (there are several guys at the gym to whom I’d gladly talk). But if she doesn’t want to chat, don’t take it personally. Chances are she’s too out of breath, sweaty, and icky-feeling to flirt adequately.
And what makes you think women don’t develop these attractions?
Thank goodness I have a non-jealous husband. I talk in my sleep, see. Occassionally about men-friends. Um… I just hope he hasn’t recorded some of those mumblings, might be embarassing…
Yeah, I usually have some sexual feelings towards male friends… I just refuse to act on them since I’ve been married.
I only date out of my men-friend pool. Well, not anymore - I’m married so I’m not dating. But if I was you’d have to achieve “friend” status first. The question is how to let the gal-friends know you’re interested in romance as well as friendship without being offensive.
The other problem is that romantic break-ups often destroy friendships. I’ve managed to stay friends with my former lovers but it’s hard.
We don’t WANT to sleep with just anyone but when it’s so difficult to find a willing partner it’s hard to rule out very many women. On the other side of things, since it’s the jerks who come up to you most often, if you want a nice guy you have to go up to him.
Somewhat cruder, but I explain to people, “I only fuck friends – that way, if the sex doesn’t work out, we can always go bowling.” There are a moderate number of women who do only choose lovers and SOs out of their pool of friends, I’ve found. (Tangent: I like to know what percentage of someone’s exes they’re on good terms with. Basic rule of thumb: if all her/his exes are psychotic bitches, chances are excellent that you’ll be cast in that role sooner or later, too.)
You know, boys, I’ve been thinking about your dilemna. I’m sure most of you are decent sorts who just don’t know what to say to get the conversation going. Here’s an example/suggestion that might give you food for thought.
OK, you’re at a health club working out. There’s a hot lady in spandex over at a weight machine you’d like to get to know better. Try going over to her and saying “Hey, have you ever used freeweights?” If she says no, volunteer to introduce her to the concept. If she says yes, ask her for some pointers. See, that way the subject is about what she’s doing, rather than cutting straight to waterbeds. But you have to be sincere about this - if she accepts your offer of instruction be serious about teaching her. Offering to be a spotter when appropriate is also a good tactic.
If you’re both regulars, just say “hi” as you go by a couple of different sessions. That way she’ll get used to you being around, and she’ll know you have the self-control not to pounce on her immediately. That way, on the fourth or fifth session you say “hi”, introduce yourself ask her if she has any other interesting hobbies.
For a slightly different tactic with people try inviting her out for a coffee instead of a drink. This works particularly well with co-workers. But don’t be surprised if she has a no-dates-with-co-workers policy. Some companies have that, too.
And don’t get too hung up about treating her “like a woman” at first. I see so many men make the mistake of treating potential date material completely differently than gal-friends. Talk to women like they’re human beings. You might even find out she likes football - plenty of women do like professional sports. The big key with a lot of women is finding out what interests you have in common so you can have an intelligent conversation.
Thats alot better than what i’ve been doing. I’ve been asking women to come with me to my shack out in the cornfields so we can read some biographies on Hitler to each other. When they refuse (as they usually do for some reason) i start crying hysterically begging for forgiveness & understanding. Then i go home & do something romantic like carve their name into my chest or put a tracking device in the trunk of their car.
I am at the same point. I think about it, and i realize ‘romantic’ relationships really can’t offer me anything i can’t get from making good friends or donating to a sperm bank. But sadly, due to millions of years of evolutionary neural wiring i have a desire to be around women. Luckily this is wearing off, i know alot of 20 somethings who are realizing the futility of intersexual escapades. I am thinking of trying drugs to make me more celibate. I find this whole thing rather pointless & hurtful when i look at it from a larger vantage point. I would like to find a way to just interact with people freely, to feel out their personalities, but i am not sure how.
This is something I never really thought about. I suppose its just bias and sour grapes checking in 
but my views about friendships made toward people I am romantically attracted to stemmed from several women I was very attracted to, whom I did become friends even though I wanted to move it to relationship status, then got stunned when my friend introduced me to her new boyfriend :eek:
Your comment and my own retrospect have me relent that I can’t really do anything about the way someone feels about me. If my presence gives them some oogy childmolester feel, or I somehow remind them of some psycho ex-boyfriend, its all up to them to get over it (or not). I can try to rationalize with them, but it all boils down to how they handle it.
Perhaps I have the whole approach ass-backwards. Maybe I should try and make friends with women and then work from there. I guess I shouldn’t let my lack of past sucess hold me back.
Keep the approach light and humourous (but by this I do not mean Mr Stoopid Funny Guy) and above all keep the pressure off. Give her an out, a chance to escape or turn you down at all times.
Yes - I think we women do have double standards, in that a good looking guy chatting us up is flattering, but an ugly guy is creepy. It’s an appalling prejudice, but there you go.
Commenting on body parts is NEVER acceptable. It is insulting, embarrassing, debasing. If any guy commented on my breasts to start off with that would be him ruled out as date, friend, business associate, everything, permanently.
Commenting on hair - maybe some women would be flattered if they have just spent time on an expensive do, I personally wouldn’t, I (unfairly probably) find men who notice and comment on female fashion details as effeminate and shallow. Then again, I personally hate fashion/labels/brands etc.
Commenting on clothes - ditto the above, but be careful, because there is a (doubtless unfair) stereotype out there that gay men appreciate clothes. So she might not take offence, but she might assume you would be more interested in dating her brother.
I don’t mind being hit on, and I’m devoted to celibacy. I hate it when I say “I’m not interested” and the guy doesn’t get the message. Keeps going on and on and asks me to defend my point and give him reasons why I said no. I mean, which part of “NO” didn’t you understand, the N or the O?
Lora Brody once wrote “For any number of reasons, a guest may decline your offer of a drink. The reason doesn’t have to be explained to anyone, including you.” That applies to anyone declining an offer of anything, including sex.
I’m beginning to think that to some extent men hitting on a woman is like a polling telemarketing call.
Sometimes, I have time for it, and its vaguely flattering - particularlly if I get the feeling that its pretty targeted - that the pollster isn’t calling EVERYONE (or the guy in question doesn’t hit on EVERY pretty girl he sees). Sometimes, if its highly targeted, and a call I am interested in giving my opinions about, its welcome, and the caller gets a good response. Sometimes, the call isn’t something I’m interested in and its “why are you bothering me.” And sometimes, I would be interested, except I’m trying to cook dinner, I need to get my laundry folded, and I want to get out the door for a 7:15 movie - and its “why are you calling me now?”
Hell, I can’t talk to women at all. Does that solve the problem?