Why Does the Double Standard for Women and Sex Persist?

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=AdmiralCrunch]

  1. Men have a higher/more urgent sex drive than women…
    This is supported by the WebMD article I linked to, the thread BrainGlutton linked to, evolutionary strategy(spread the seed vs. find a mate to raise a child), and the general cliché that exists in society today. Personal anecdotes aside, until someone digs up some cites otherwise, in general this one’s true.
    [/quote]

No, this is not certain. For one, that evolutionary strategy is false, which I already stated upthread. It’s based on limited sample size and poor studies of a few species. In our closest relatives, females have the same sex drives as males. If the female sex drive is less than males in humans, what is the reason for that? Most of the hunter-gatherer tribes that I studied the sex lives of have relations closer to that of our ape cousins rather than most agricultural societies (multiple partners for both males and females) which suggests that if such a change has occurred, it is a relatively recent development in history (and based on the anthropological and cultural evidence historically based). In preliterate societies, masturbation is rare because both sexes get more sex (Marshall and Suggs, 1971).

There have been and are many societies where females were considered having a higher sex drive than men. And in societies where female sexuality is not repressed women have sex more, initiate sex more, and have more orgasms. Look at the Mangaian women who make sure each boy grows up knowing how to please a woman. Why do female orgasmic frequencies vary so much from culture to culture if it is biological (Marshall and Suggs, 1971)? Why do some studies suggest that it takes about the same time for males and females to reach orgasm?

Since men tend to pick their partners based on looks and women tend to pick their partners based on what men own or possess in our culture (Buss 1989,1994) then it is reasonable to assume that some women marry men they are not physically attracted to.

This is because males in the societies leading to ours have restricted the sexual availability of females for a variety of reasons.

That she identifies as such. Women may get horny as often as men, it’s hard to tell because they often deny their own horniness. There have been studies that measure female sexual response in women and often females will deny being aroused when they are.

The studies I mentioned but didn’t cite aren’t in the books on sexuality that I own. I can pull up the information when I go to school tomorrow for anyone who is interested.

82

[QUOTE=Siege]
Could we please, in the interest of the very purpose this board is dedicated to, drop the notion that all women are inherently less interested in sex than men?
Thank you.
[/QUOTE]
Did someone actually say or imply that? What I have seen suggested here is that the overall set of “all women” is less interested in sex then the overall set of “all men”. That is different than saying that every individual woman is less interested in sex then men.

Or, I’m just wrong. Meh.
oh damn. beaten to the punch as usual. well, i’ll let my post stand for the record. whatever that is.

83

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Sooo many possibilities…

<snippity>

-Quality (If they like your personality enough to continue the relationship but you’re no good in bed, they may just opt to masturbate. Also, sometimes lots of screwing with little foreplay can lead to irritation, UTIs, etc.)

<snip>
[/QUOTE]

In the thread BrainGlutton linked to, Doperettes eventually stopped defending the proposition that women want sex as much as men, and fell back to this same line: “You’d get laid more often if you were better at it.” Well, just FYI and without a cite, I am mighty good at it. Still didn’t help. And the Cheatin’ Ex, paradoxically, felt more guilty about masturbating than she did about sleeping with married men. Go figure.

Of course, I like the way you assert earlier that women actually want sex a lot because they’re not getting enough orgasms, and now that women refuse sex a lot because they’re not getting enough orgasms. :dubious:

84

[QUOTE=AdmiralCrunch]

  1. Men have a higher/more urgent sex drive than women.

[/QUOTE]

One reason there is disagreement in this thread is because there is a gap between the desire to have sex (which the women in this thread are assuring us is there) and the observable facts (the men in this thread see less willingness in their mates, and women in general, to have sex).

This gap is explained, I think, by the fact that even if women want to have sex just as much as men do, they want to have fantastic sex. If the sex on a particular night is expected to be ‘meh’, they would just as soon not go for it.

On the other hand, men also want fantastic sex, but when presented with the options of ‘meh’ sex and no sex, men will choose the ‘meh’ sex, most of the time.

Therefore there is an observed difference in the desire to have sex, even though the underlying desires are similar.

Another reason for the discrepancy, I think, is that the women who frequent this board may have a higher sex drive than women in the general population, and so their personal sex drive skews their perception of the sex drive of women in general.

For example, if men and women had the same sex drives in the general population, I would assume that gay men would have sex with the same frequency as lesbians. From what I have heard though, it seems gays have much more sex than lesbians (Google ‘lesbian bed death’. It has been said that lesbian bed death is a myth, but even Rosie O’Donnell, a lesbian herself, acknowledged it existed)

85

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Quality (If they like your personality enough to continue the relationship but you’re no good in bed, they may just opt to masturbate…
[/QUOTE]

But see, there’s the difference.
If a guy likes a woman’s personality enough to continue the relationship, but she’s no good in bed, he will still prefer to have sex with her, rather than masturbate.

So, there is a difference in how the sex drive is expressed.

86

[QUOTE=Siege]
lowbrass, you’ve got to start hanging out with different women! :wink: I’ve run into the opposite problem. The men I’ve dated haven’t let me pay for dinner, even after several months of dating. Believe me, I tried, and the only reason I might be paying for dinner tonight is because I’ve got gift certificates.

[/QUOTE]

Let me tell you that I really respect you for offering to pay. I think that’s quite impressive. But the fact that the men you date always pay is just more evidence of the double-standard. Note that I didn’t say only women expect men to pay; I think a lot of men buy into this as well, and assume they are expected to pay as well as refuse the woman’s offer to pay. Next time you go out to dinner, watch and see if a server ever, when there is a man and a woman at a table, places the check next to the woman. It’s not going to happen. They will either put it next to the man, or in the middle, but the check will never be given to the woman.

87

[QUOTE=Polerius]

On the other hand, men also want fantastic sex, but when presented with the options of ‘meh’ sex and no sex, men will choose the ‘meh’ sex, most of the time.

[/QUOTE]

Of course even mediocre sex is good for the man, because men take responsibility for their own orgasms, whereas many (but certainly not all) women expect the man to “give” them an orgasm, which of course doesn’t always happen. If men expected women to “give” them orgasms, and just thought “oh well” when that didn’t happen, they would definitely have a lot fewer, and their opinion of sex would undoubtedly be lower.

88

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
men take responsibility for their own orgasms, whereas many (but certainly not all) women expect the man to “give” them an orgasm
[/QUOTE]

I agree that that is the case, but why is it the case?

89

I omitted to pick up on pizzabrat’s odd assertion that an ugly man with no money can always go and make some money and so be able to get himself a woman, and if he’s unsatified with what he can attract he can go and make some more, and so ad infinitum, but the passively-waiting woman has no options to improve her chances. The unattractive overweight woman can adjust her eating (what am I saying, this is the Dope, I mean “get treatment for her unique metabolic disorder”), take more exercise, get her teeth fixed and her hair done, dress a little nicer and, oh, I don’t know, maybe work on her personality a little, all with as much facility as the u.m.w.n.m. can become a super-earning high-achiever - so I don’t buy this “men have the edge” argument at all.

90

Can someone explain to me what all this has to do with the OP namely “Why does it seem like casual sex is still less appropriate for women than men?”, or is it accepted that we are now so thoroughly into a hijack that the OP is passe?

91

Well, I’m getting part of my answer.
Gentlemen, would you take a look at what you’re saying? Most people conform to the expectations of the society they live in, or at least give it their best shot. I think one thing most of us in this thread can agree that, among the consequences of being different or outside the social normal in some way is that it reduces your odds of having sex or even dating quite a bit. To put it bluntly, weird doesn’t get laid.

So, here we have women coming in and saying we enjoy sex and that we, too, have powerful sex drives, and believe me, it can be just as urgent and what are you telling us? You (generic you) keep repeating that we’re unusual, different, or outside the norm. Now picture a young woman reading this thread who’s wondering about her sexuality and if it’s all right or normal for a young woman to want sex badly. When you tell me or catsix or the other women in this thread that we’re unusual and that most women don’t want sex or want less sex and that’s the way it’s always been, you’re passing on that same message to that same hypothetical young woman. So much for being comfortable with her sexuality. Yes, I am oversimplifying.

92

I took it as it was intended.

It may be a bit oversimplified like you said, but that’s what’s happening. The attitude is so pervasive that any woman who goes against it is ‘unusual’ or an ‘outlier’, which really isn’t helping to change the attitude.

My thought on it is that although the biological factors have changed due to modern technology, attitudes change a lot slower. It’s going to take a long time before this relic is gone.

How many men in this thread would tell their daughters that there’s nothing at all wrong with going out and getting laid if that’s what they want?

93

[QUOTE=Siege]
Well, I’m getting part of my answer.
Gentlemen, would you take a look at what you’re saying? Most people conform to the expectations of the society they live in, or at least give it their best shot. I think one thing most of us in this thread can agree that, among the consequences of being different or outside the social normal in some way is that it reduces your odds of having sex or even dating quite a bit. To put it bluntly, weird doesn’t get laid.

So, here we have women coming in and saying we enjoy sex and that we, too, have powerful sex drives, and believe me, it can be just as urgent and what are you telling us? You (generic you) keep repeating that we’re unusual, different, or outside the norm. Now picture a young woman reading this thread who’s wondering about her sexuality and if it’s all right or normal for a young woman to want sex badly. When you tell me or catsix or the other women in this thread that we’re unusual and that most women don’t want sex or want less sex and that’s the way it’s always been, you’re passing on that same message to that same hypothetical young woman. So much for being comfortable with her sexuality. Yes, I am oversimplifying.
[/QUOTE]

shrug I’m sorry you feel that way. For my part, I’ve not been describing women’s perceived sexual indifference as a praiseworthy state of affairs, nor a higher sexual desire as improper - simply that in my experience and that of those men who ever mention the subject it is not the case that women do want sex as much as men do. I don’t especially endorse catsix’s attitude towards the opposite sex as simply a convenient provider of genitals to get her off, but then neither would I admire it in a man so I can hardly be accused of perpetuating the double standard. As for daughters and sisters, I have no daughter, but I’m ticked off far more by my sister’s apparent conviction that men should be made to beg for it than I ever would be by an admission that she enjoyed the act itself.

94

[QUOTE=Siege]
So, here we have women coming in and saying we enjoy sex and that we, too, have powerful sex drives, and believe me, it can be just as urgent and what are you telling us? You (generic you) keep repeating that we’re unusual, different, or outside the norm. Now picture a young woman reading this thread who’s wondering about her sexuality and if it’s all right or normal for a young woman to want sex badly. When you tell me or catsix or the other women in this thread that we’re unusual and that most women don’t want sex or want less sex and that’s the way it’s always been, you’re passing on that same message to that same hypothetical young woman. So much for being comfortable with her sexuality. Yes, I am oversimplifying.
[/QUOTE]

The purpose of this thread is to report what people perceive as truth. It is not to socially-engineer a reality (in which all women are like those in the thread) that may or not be desirable.

95

I wouldn’t put too much stock in the WebMD cite. Data may not be the plural of anecdote, but the cite doesn’t give any data, just authority figures giving their opinions. And how you would design an experiment that can tell what part of sex drive is natural and what’s distorted by social pressure is beyond me. Hell, that article says they’re having trouble rigorously defining what sex drive is! So I think Siege’s and Catsix’s coochie itch is some of the best evidence we’ve got on the subject.

[QUOTE=catsix]
How many men in this thread would tell their daughters that there’s nothing at all wrong with going out and getting laid if that’s what they want?
[/QUOTE]

One of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen was a “just say no” ad that began, “How to get your kids to say no when you said yes.” Great googly moogly, people, say what you believe! Either admit that you tried drugs when you were younger and it was a mistake, or don’t tell them to just say no!

I would be very concerned if the Demitasse went out and got laid, since she’s only 2 and is more into casual furniture climbing than casual sex. However, when she’s older, if the subject came up, I’d say something like this:

I think sex is right or wrong by the same rules as anything else: Are you hurting someone? Are you being honest? If that’s what you believe too, then stay healthy, don’t get pregnant, and have fun. I’ve noticed however, that many people, notably women, don’t agree with me; they seem to think that sleeping with someone you’re not in love with is a profound betrayal of their innermost self. If that’s what you believe, but you’re thinking of going to bed anyway to be popular or whatever–Almost everything you think you have: friends, money, home, family, health, can disappear just like that, get taken away with a snap of God’s fingers. Everything but your honor and your values. No one can ever take those from you. You have to throw them away by your own choice. Hang on to what you have.

Truth is a babe and I want to go to bed with Her. My pumpkins deserve nothing but the very best.

96

I think the key to this arguement is, as I think we all pretty much agree on, the dynamic between men and women when it comes to getting sex. On a macro level it is very straight forward. Men want sex and will chases women until they get it. Women, more or less, just have to show up and wait for the man of thier chosing.

I think what goes on at the micro level is much more complex, and answering the OP, what leads to the whole slut label coming about. The reality is that while it seems women are just waiting for the right one as guys throw themselves at them, there is much more going on. Women are just like men in that they want as desireable a partner as possible and they are willing to work to get it. They just don’t do it like men. Anyone who has ever seen two women comete over a guy knows exactly what I mean. Rarely do they do anything overtly. Its all about subtly planting ideas and convincing the guy and others that she is the right choice. The reality is that guys don’t care all that much if a girl is a slut. But guys do care greatly about being associated with girls that make them look good and enchance thier standing in the eyes of others. Therefore the slut label can be a girls most lethal weapon. By labeling a girl a slut, they undermine the quality of the man’s acheivement in the eyes of other men, and lower his apeal and standing among other women.

I dont think this situation alone explains why its less acceptable for women to be promiscuous. No question there is at least some holdover from the our more patriarchical days. But I honestly believe that the main reason that this idea still persists is the the attitudes and actions of women and not men.

97

[QUOTE=Princhester]
Can someone explain to me what all this has to do with the OP namely “Why does it seem like casual sex is still less appropriate for women than men?”, or is it accepted that we are now so thoroughly into a hijack that the OP is passe?
[/QUOTE]

Because it steams from, among other things, two commonly held beliefs.

  1. Women have a naturally low sex drive and those who do are abnormal. Therefore, a woman who enjoys sex and activity seeks it out like the average man would is unusual, maybe even has problems with too much testosterone. Also, the double standard is justified because of various issues stemming from this supposed lower sex drive.

  2. The whole argument that says that men are biologically programmed to spread their seed and have many partners while women want to minimize their partners in order to not waste eggs is another example of a societal belief that causes men to justify their actions and condemn women who go against the grain.

Our culture now uses science to oppress women’s sexuality instead of religion.

98

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Started a GQ thread.
[/QUOTE]

And so far, the answer appears to be, the incidence of gay men in the population is slightly higher than that of lesbians; but the figures are hard to pin down because of various factors, including the unreliability of self-reporting, the fuzzy distinction between gays and bisexuals, and the phenomenon of people of both sexes who regularly have sex with partner of the same gender but still self-identify as nothing but heterosexual.

99

[QUOTE=Malacandra]

Of course, I like the way you assert earlier that women actually want sex a lot because they’re not getting enough orgasms, and now that women refuse sex a lot because they’re not getting enough orgasms. :dubious:
[/QUOTE]

Well yes, sometimes it does wear you out. Women can enjoy sex without orgasm. They’ll continue having sex with different people in search of the often elusive payoff. But if they settle down with someone who’s got all the right qualities but isn’t tops in the sack, they may just resignt hemselves to less sex and more self-love for the sake of the relationship. Doesn’t mean they’re not horny. Perhaps they just complain more (especially as they age and as mores change with generations – I definitely hear much more women talk about masturbation now), while my male friends are happy to be getting any.

(As for, you know, the actual OP, I think kimera’s hit it on the head. In another time or another place, we could just as easily be wondering why women were such savage sexual creatures, or how chaste women must learn how to tame men’s vices).

100

I look at the young women of today and it breaks my heart. Rarely does a week go by that I don’t hear a young man making severely disparaging comments about women. While dealing a tournament a woman was at the next table playing, she is a dealer and plays a lot of poker, she knocked out two players in one hand. The guy at my table said “wow,a GIRL knocked out two players!” The woman at my table remarked rather surprisedly “That didn’t sound right to me.” I responded, “Nope, not to me either.” She was definitely of the age of the ERA amendment and I certainly remember it.

There is a young girl at work. She isn’t very well liked by many because she’s mean and stupid. However, she’s liked from afar by many because she is young, blonde and built. I don’t think young women today understand that just because a guy wants to have sex with you, doesn’t really give you anything. In my youth, I was amenable to the “one night stand” and had sex when I wanted to, I felt like it gave me power. I’m older now. Hopefully a tad wiser. A guy wanting to have sex with me is exactly that. No more, no less. I’m 39 and get hit on by guys in their 20’s a shocking amount of time. I joke that my target age now seems to be 22-28.

What we fail to be teaching our daughters AND ourselves is that while sex can be fabulous, in the big scheme of things, having a guy wanting to have sex with you isn’t really all that unique. Typically, they are not known for their discretion.

I don’t dislike the young girl at work because she’s a manipulative slut. I dislike her because she’s mean, stupid and walks around like she is the only one worth having. I feel sorry for her perspective, I wish the 20 years between her and me would have resulted in less of those types, but it hasn’t.

Then again, the mothers are the ones dressing their 2 year olds in pants that have JUICY pasted on their ass.

We are our own worst enemies. My own mother will preach how women are equal and how horrid women are that dote on their sons, except she is most definitely and gross offender.

And why won’t Hillary wear a dress or a skirt? Egads. She reminds me of the mannish women of the 70’s and early 80’s.