[obligatory cheapshot]
She doesn’t dare. One strong breeze and her testicles might show. 
[/oc]
If that’s where you think that I’m coming from, you’re ascribing a whole lot more to my attitude about sex than really exists. Why would you assume that a young (younger than you, I suppose) woman wants to have sex or likes a one night stand because she wants power, and that it’s wiser to not want a one nighter? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but your opinion here is, quite frankly, insulting. You don’t give women younger than yourself credit for being intelligent, you assume that they’re just not as wise as you. You don’t consider that maybe they just want to get laid, get off, get some jollies and go home. That’s all a one-nighter is about for me. It’s not about getting power or believing that I ‘get’ anything because a guy wants to have sex with me. Sorry, but there’s no deeper hidden meaning. It’s just about the orgasms.
I don’t think it matters that it’s not ‘unique’. Why is that important at all? This is more of the same indoctrination that there’s something wrong with a female having sex that doesn’t have some heavy emotional component. I don’t care if it’s ‘unique’. When I go out looking for a one-nighter, that’s all I want, just sex. No breakfast, no call you tomorrow, none of it. Just do me and leave. Why do you still want to prepetuate the notion that fabulous sex isn’t ever enough?
Ignoring the fact that JUICY is a clothing manufacturer and that their trademark in sweat suits is to put JUICY on the ass of the pants, I do think you’re exaggerating the scenario by a mile. There’s a lot of objection, primarily by older women, to a younger woman who advertises her sexuality ‘too much’. The whole negative ‘slut’ thing starts coming out because, oh my god, a girl is being too forward. Maybe they are, like I was, specifically trying to attract a certain type of attention. My point is that there is nothing wrong with that. What I’m arguing against is the belief that there is something wrong with a woman who likes sex, wants sex, wants to attract that attention from men, and doesn’t think there’s something wrong with her or doesn’t think she’s giving up anything special by doing what she wants.
If you’re not harmed by it, and you don’t harm someone else by it, what’s the big deal?
Something wrong with women who don’t wear skirts? I don’t. I don’t like them. Find them terribly uncomfortable even. I have no idea why you have a problem with that, though.
You may be heartbroken over the disparaging comment some guy made overtly about one woman, but you’re making far more disparaging comments subtly about all women who don’t fit your mental template of what a woman should be. That guy’s comment, IMO, is less damaging to women as a whole than what you expressed here.
One of the most common misconceptions that men have about women.
A lifetime of experience has taught me that it takes a whole lot more than just being female to get a guy into bed.
Really and truly, men do not just line up in front of a woman and wait for her to pick one. It doesn’t work that way. It’s just as hard for us to get laid as it is for you.
As I went on to explain, please read all of my thread.
I’m with catsix. I’m over 40, average to nerdy looking, wear glasses, and am a bit overweight. If I were interested in an excercise in masochism, I could try sitting in a bar for an hour or two and see how many passes were made at me. I suspect the number would be pretty close to 0. Come to think of it, I seem to remember experiencing that back when I was in my 20s. Even my current relationship was started by me going to him and giving him my phone number. Life has taught me if I “show up and wait for the man of [my] choosing” as theman1632 put it, I’m going to be waiting a rather long time, and I’ve got better things to do.
I don’t know. Definitely societal conditioning, but there may be a biological element to it as well. It’s hard for me to figure out, because I’m not convinced that women are always honest about themselves. Some women say they enjoy sex without having an orgasm, yet others say they are not satisfied without one. So I can’t tell if there really is a biological difference between the imperative men and women feel to have an orgasm, or if women are just saying it’s not as important to them, either out of deference to men, or because they’re trying to convince themselves that a mediocre sexual experience was actually good. Or maybe because they’re afraid to assert themselves in bed because they think the man won’t like them if they do? I’m baffled by the whole thing.
Hmmm…still seems easier, though. I’ll bet I could give my phone number to every woman in the entire bar and not get a single call - I’d have to do a lot more work than that. Sounds like you got a hit on your first try!
To quote noted scholar Dante Hicks
This is backed up by the BBC link I gave. Orgasms are strongly linked to genetics. Some women only experience orgasms with oral sex.
Only when masturbating. During intercourse, women take 10-20 minutes while men take as little as 2 minutes. Wikipedia entry
Then we agree that it’s easier for women to get laid than men? Doesn’t matter the cause, if women are in control of the situation, men have to pursue and women have to accept. That’s why the double standard for casual sex persists.
From Wikipedia: While females aged 13–17 masturbated almost once a day on average (and almost as often as their male peers), adult women only masturbated 8–9 times a month, compared to the 18–22 among men. (This comes from a magazine survey here. Plenty of statistics to look over later.) Also, Rhesus monkeys raised in isolation from their parents (to prevent learned behavior) showed higher masturbation rates in males, suggesting an innate difference in sex drive. From here
Like Polerius said, men and women may have the same “drive”, but women want fantastic sex. They’re more willing to go without because it’s harder to reach orgasm with a partner if he’s not particularly skilled. Can we agree on this?
How is this different from calling homosexuality unusual? Just because something isn’t as common doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Highly intelligent people are statistical outliers, too. Just because every woman isn’t the same doesn’t mean there aren’t millions out there just like her.
I wouldn’t have a problem with it if that’s what she wants.
As dubious as a WebMD article is, I’ll trust it over 2 anecdotes from women who self-report having high sex drives being the norm.
Science observes and tries to make sense of observations. There is no massive conspiracy among scientists to oppress women.
I don’t think anyone said it takes no skill or preparation or luck for women to have sex. It just takes less, on average, than it does for a man.
Can we agree that women vary more than men when it comes to casual sex? When men have casual sex to get off and it happens most of the time. When women have sex to get off it’s more of a crapshoot. Men have more incentive, more men participate, so it’s more common among men. Fewer women participate, so those who do are easier to stigmatize by their peers.
What about the gay/lesbian example I raised above?
If the women in this thread are not outside the norm, and the two genders have the same sex drive, wouldn’t gays and lesbians be having the same amount of sex?
What explains the vast differential in the amount of sex gays have vs lesbians?
(I assume the above to be the case. If there is evidence to the contrary, I’d like to hear about it. It’d be interesting to hear from people who know lesbians and gays well enough to make a comparison)
Another indicator of the difference in the sex drive of women is that, from personal experience and from what I read, women need to be not distracted by daily disturbances (kid problems, bills to pay, chores to do) to really be in the mood for sex.
On the other hand, no matter how many bills a guy has to pay, no matter how many day-to-day problems may be bothering him, he is able to quickly put those aside and be ready for sex.
Do you agree with the above?
In your case, since you have a high sex drive, can you get in the mood for sex with 1000 daily problems nagging you?
************ TOTAL HIJACK ALERT **********
Isn’t admitting that you tried drugs when you were younger but that it was a mistake exactly “How to get your kids to say no when you said yes”? Don’t you and the “just say no” ad essentially agree?
I’m going to go by what the biologists say and by the rates of orgasm in tribes where men are taught how to please women. The problem is, a lot of women don’t take initiative in teaching men how to please them. I’ve had females admit to me that they don’t bother to try. Also, the most common position among heterosexual couples in our society is missionary which is known for generally speaking, being better for the male to reach orgasm than for females.
I see no evidence to back this up that isn’t culturally influenced. Women could just be pickier about their partners than men. And who says women are in control?
I never claimed that females in our culture masturbate less than males. They don’t because sexual females are looked down upon. I’ve known men who swore off masturbation for a variety of reasons and all of the ones I spoke with reported that they no longer got wet dreams. If you ignore your sex drive long enough, it can go away.
Monkeys are not apes.
No. The reason why I and most other women go without is because of society rather than ease. It’s very easy to reach orgasm, I have no problem reaching it in seconds on my own if sufficiently aroused. And, as I said earlier, if more women trained men, there wouldn’t be this issue in the first place.
Futhermore, there is a reason why the Greeks said that women receive 9 parts of the sexual pleasure versus 1 part for men. More women can have multiple orgasms than men and female bodies tend to have more erogenous zones.
I did not say that at all. I am a scientist myself. What I said was that people use bad science to justify their beliefs where previously they used religion. Those stats were what was accepted as true up until about 10-20 years ago, but people haven’t bothered to keep with the data that shows those studies were insufficient to understanding animal and human sexuality.
You are correct. She also has to say yes.
You are right again! The men don’t actually line up, they are usually randomly scattered. Sitting pensively, they watch her while eagerly awaiting her judgment. Once she DOES make the pick and decides she’s ready for her lick/fuck, a man’s not going to risk her changing her mind; you’ll never hear him say: “let me finish this pool game first,” or “just a minute-- I need to get my new leather jacket-- it’s got $2000 and my wallet in it,” or “hold on while I throw water on my friend–you see, he’s on fire.”
No. it isn’t.
And you were doing so well! Still, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad…
Or maybe you’re just living in your head.
That’s one thing I always find hard to understand. Why do men have to be taught how to please women? Does a male lion have to be taught how to please female lions? Does a male ape have to be taught how to please a female ape?
I don’t understand why evolution resulted in a species where the male is not instinctively capable of giving the most pleasure possible to the female of the species. Or conversely, a species where the female of the species needs a lot of effort and/or special technique to achieve pleasure from sex.
Of course, maybe nature doesn’t care if the females maximize their pleasure. Maybe the huge pleasure potential in a woman is a ‘hidden’ feature that is not strictly needed for the survival of the human species, but is something that humans discovered, and something that has to be taught.
From your Rhesus monkeys cite:
False. There are many evolutionary advantages for females to sleep with many males: increased fertility, social peace, avoidance of infanticide, getting the perfect mate and the perfect father even if they aren’t the same person, etc.
I have never heard this seriously proposed and it doesn’t match with what I have studied. Bruce’s Bagemihl’s book has a lot of good arguments against it.
Doesn’t match with data from more recent studies in humans or with animals. For example, female bonobos have more sex with each other than male bonobos have sex with other males. This leads to more sex for females.
Because some women refuse to take care of themselves due to their idea that sex is dirty. Female apes will use tricks and various methods to get male apes into having sex in ways that please them rather than the males. For example, they might start out in the male’s favorite position to convince him to have sex (I’ve read and seen many cases of the females begging for sex from the males) and then switch over to their favorite position as soon as they start. If more females took control of their own sexuality and stopped leaving the pleasure entirely up to the male, this wouldn’t be a problem.
Well, there is this thing called foreplay, which the vast majority of humans and apes engage in. Oral and hand sex are also common enough in both. In straight heterosex where the penis just thrusts into the vagina, a good percentage of women won’t get off, but that is true for other species as well. It’s because of how the body is set up which was necessary for certain reasons.
Not sure I agree with that last part. I don’t think it’s that men don’t have erogenous zones; I think it’s that many are ashamed of admitting it because it’s not “manly”. And I think many women think they’re supposed to go straight for the penis rather than taking any initiative with foreplay, because they mistakenly think that’s what all men want.
Because humans have frontal cortex. The males of the species don’t really need to use this while mating, but the female in many cases needs to use our species’ unique tool, language, to get off. Thus, men have to be taught to give women pleasure but not the opposite.
The language needn’t be used during the actual act, it might not even always be language per se (e.g. foreplay), but at some point, in order to feel maximal pleasure, the female may want affirmation of the male’s commitment (for example, by asking the male some variation of, “But do you REALLY love me?”) IOW, her pleasure is contingent upon her comfort and security.
So we all get to enjoy the comic theater of gender-specific reproductive strategy hoisted up to humans’ absurdly high level of cognition, then breathtakingly plunged back down to base desires and needs:
Woman: “Do you love me?” (“I need to know that if I commit my egg, womb and years of child-rearing toil to your sperm and hence, the continuation of your lineage, that you will provide materially for the child and hence help insure the continuation of my lineage.”)
**Man: ** “YES, dammit, I already TOLD you that I LOVE you. FOREVER and EVER!!!” (I need to get as much of my sperm into as many viable wombs as I can while I’m still alive and I’ll use any behavior necessary to achieve this.")
IMPORTANT CAVAET THAT IS STRONG ENOUGH FOR A MAN, BUT MADE FOR A WOMAN: Against my knuckle-dragging, Neaderlithic, sexist will my hands have been compelled by an inhuman force (but I couldn’t swear that it wasn’t Andrea Dworkin) to type the following:
In the case of uber-modern, mega-empowered, ultra-womyn who are far too sophisticated to allow themselves to beholden by any mere genetics, (which after all is merely a “science” invented by men to oppress womyn) none of the above theory holds true because the Goddess forces of nature has been bent to their wills.
I would think that having a bunch of different male partners constantly hanging around would be the surest way to increase infanticide because the males want their own offspring to survive at the expense of other males’ offspring. I would be interested in seeing a cite from your woman’s studies textbook (or, if you don’t have that I guess I’d settle for a cite from a peer-reviewed scientific journal).
Here’s one thing you ladies can do to fight the double standard: When you catch your guy flirting (or more) with another woman, take it out on him alone. Don’t scratch her eyes out. Don’t call her a tramp or a whore or a slut. Don’t even think it.
Guys too – don’t punch out another guy if you catch him flirting (or more) with your girl; don’t even warn him off of her; talk to her about it, period.
This is the civilized and mature approach. It is also what philosophers and theologians call a “counsel of perfection.”
I don’t see any biological evidence for this. The idea of love and sex being joined isn’t even a common human idea, look at the study I linked in the thread on the prevalence of homosexuality where a man says that women are for love and other men are for sex.
I can see how it would be a cultural construct, but I question if most women in our culture need to be told that they are loved in order to get off.
lowbrass, that may be true, I admit I focus my reading on female and “alternative” sexualities. All of the transwomen I know who I have talked about sexual functioning with reported more erogenous zones after starting HRT so I assumed that there was something in estrogen that caused more of them to appear. But, when I think about it, the change could be due to a greater feeling of comfort in relation to one’s appearance which would result in greater level of sexuality.
Oooh, which reminds me. In our culture, men usually report higher levels of satisfaction with their own bodies (although now eating disorders are on the rise) and many females report being negative feelings about how they look. This could cause them to be more reluctant to get naked in the first place. I’ve seen several threads where a woman worries about the way her body looks and multiple males try to reassure her that if he’s having sex with her, he probably isn’t going to care if her breasts aren’t perky. I remember reading in my anthropology text about a culture where men and women had a lot more sex with each other and the females had higher self esteems. There was a part where a guy teasingly made fun of a teenage girl’s looks but she just laughed at him and told him that she knew she was pretty.