Why Does the Double Standard for Women and Sex Persist?

Great Debates
121

It’s interesting that you changed ‘may’ to ‘is’. Trust me when I say that my pleasure is a matter of friction applied to the correct body parts.

I’m the last person who’s ever claimed to buy into feminist bullshit, and have quite a reputation around here and other places for hating feminism. You want to know why straight up intercourse doesn’t always get a chick off? Because the biggest bundle of sexual pleasure nerves sits outside her vagina. In a lot of cases, missionary position doesn’t apply the friction in the right place.

Yeah that would help. Men choose who they flirt with, and if you (generic) have a a problem with your guy flirting with someone, tell him.

Some of them also need to get over the ‘hands off my sister’ thing. I had a cousin, six years older than me, who tried this whole protective-big-brother approach. I don’t talk to him anymore.

122

Infanticide is extremely common among some groups of monkeys and apes (including humans). It is used for a variety of reasons, including a child born too soon to another child, a way to get ride of female children in a society that prefers males, a way to get rid of handicapped children, and a way to cause females to go into estrus again.

Infanticide as a way to increase one’s reproductive success was first observed by Sarah Hrdy (she’s an amazing anthropologist, check out her work) in 1977 in her study of Hanuman langurs. This has also been observed in oragutans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and other species. In 1999, Borries et al. collected DNA samples from langurs who kills infants, the infants, and the the subsequent infants birthed by the mothers of the killed infants. They found that all of the infants killed belonged to some other primate than the killer and that in most cases, the new infant produced was the offspring of the killer.

As Frans de Waal (he’s a must read) puts it, females avoid infanticide when each male has reason to consider the child to be his. Infanticide has not been observed in bonobos due to the “sluttiness” of the females.

It is interesting to note that female chimps face a high danger of domestic violence, particularly if they are known to sleep around . The female chimps who face the most beatings are those that are most promiscuous. You would think that being beaten up would convince them not to sleep around, but they keep doing it. In order to get around this, they will often go to other groups and sleep with the males there. More than 50% of the offspring produced by a female in a tribe will have been fathered by someone outside of it.

Female bonobos escape this violence because of two factors. One, the constant sex with other females forges relationships between them that causes them to unite when threatened with male hostility. (Meredith Small, another amazing anthropologist wrote a very interesting article about this subject and applied it to human relationships). But the whole reason that the females were able to do this was due to the differences in the geographical environment the two groups ended up in. In the bonobos, food was more plentiful so the females could hang around with each other a lot and form friendships. In tribes where food was harder to come back, the females had to go out farther from each other to forge and strong relationships between them were never formed.

This can be paralleled with several human societies. For example, I have read multiple accounts of the hostility displayed by the Yamamoto towards each other and of the males towards the females. In most of the accounts about these people, the details of their perilous economic system is mentioned.

If you are looking for a fun, informative reading on animal sexuality in general, check out “Dr Tatiana’s Sex Advice To All Creation” by Olivia Judson. She talks about how, in most species, the more a female mates, the greater fertility she has and the more offspring are produced.

123

Did you see my rough drafts? Because you are right. I DID change the ‘may’ to ‘is’. In fact, all through that post I changed a bunch of stuff several times between ‘is’, ‘may’, ‘could be part of’, ‘sometimes’, ‘always’ etc. I was all over the place. Because I will freely admit that it was all just made up on the spot. That’s not to say I didn’t think about it seriously, or that I don’t believe that there may be something to my assertion, but it was kind of stream of consciousness, I must admit.

THANK YOU very much for not completely jumping on me for posting an idea that could be taken (wrongly) by some as sexist. I was just postulating on where male and females’ biological imperatives, as we currently understand them, intersect with contemporary romantic and sexual behaviors. I am very curious about it and I’d love to look into it more. I believe that further research could reveal some truth to what I posted, but, today, it was a lot of opinion, I admit.

I think another reason men have to be taught how to please women because it doesn’t come naturally (pardon the pun). Female orgasm is not necessary for propagation, but male orgasm is. Thus it is only natural that humans would evolve toward maximum ease and intensity of male pleasure during sex.

124

As far as the cultures that claim that women have a much stronger sex drive than men, I think that they are wrong, or outright lying. In no small part because such cultures often then go on to say that women must by controlled or confined or hidden under veils or burkhas because of their out of control sensuality.

I think I’d say “just make sure they use a condom; otherwise, go for it”. I’d be more worried about her being assaulted than about how many people she slept with, and I’d be more worried about her personal relationships than her sexual ones, assuming she was protected. Then I don’t have a daughter, so my perspective is no doubt skewed. Plus, I’m weird.

As a rule, they don’t even try, and aren’t very good. Human males are some of the best when it comes to pleasing females, because we actually care, as a rule.

Because there’s not many Darwinian advantages to it. In fact, since it makes her more reluctant, harder to win over, there are evolutionary advantages to a female not liking or even disliking sex.

That’s one possibility. Or, perhaps it evolved as a test for men, to make the men who are concerned enough to learn and try better bed partners. And then there’s the argument that women’s sexual pleasure is merely the equivalent of male nipples; something they have because the other sex has them.

125

Uh-huh.

And which gender spends more money on phone sex, do you think?

126

Which gender has to pay for what it wants more often, sexually speaking ? A woman who wants a fantasy fulfilled, verbal or otherwise, can generally just ask, as long as the possibility of sex is promised or implied afterward.

127

Again, doesn’t matter the cause. If women are pickier about their partners, whether it’s biology, society, or the divine will of the crying baby Jesus, this creates a shortage of women. Thus women have an easier time getting laid than men. Agreed?

Fair enough. It was a weak cite and I didn’t read the whole article. Comment and cite withdrawn.

Why split hairs? Let me rephrase. They’re more willing to go without because it’s harder to reach orgasm with a partner if he’s not trained. Again, it doesn’t matter why women in our society have fewer orgasms in casual sex and one night stand situations than men. Because they do, they have less incentive to pursue them. Agreed?

I’m with you 100% on these. In fact, according to Dr. Drew Pinksy of Loveline fame, many women can’t have an orgasm from intercourse and require hand or oral stimulation.

In fact, I’ll withdraw the sex drive debate for another time or thread. It’s a sticking point and isn’t necessary to explain the answer to the OP. It was a theory of mine that hasn’t been successfully supported to help the argument.

In summary:

  1. Because the popular perception in our society is that men are limited by how many women will sleep with them, while women are limited by how many men they will sleep with, men who have lots of casual sex are seen as studs while women who do the same are seen as sluts. It’s not why the double standard exists, it’s what is helping it persist.
  2. This perception is at least partially true in our society because fewer women pursue casual sex for a variety of reasons, including pressure from society, lower chance of being pleasured, women problems, etc.
128

Oh, well I didn’t know that. Maybe you’re right, then.

129

I think a good question is why does Siege have a high sex drive? It has been claimed that a man’s greater sex drive is because of high testosterone levels compared to women. A women’s testosterone level is only a small fraction of a man’s so she has a lower drive. If there are more factors involved what are they? If we were to test Seige’s T levels would she have the same amount as a man? I don’t think that is possible, so her high drive would be based upon something other that testosterone. What? How are high drive women different that low drive women?

130

At a guess : greater sensitivity to that aspect of testosterone, or her sex drive is just naturally stronger than average; if she’d been born a man, she might’ve had a sex drive as much stronger than the average man as hers is stronger than the average woman.

Also, I’ve read that testosterone’s emotional effects work more like a switch than the female hormones do; they work, or they don’t, as long as they exceed a certain threshold, which helps produce the illusion that men are less affected by their hormones than women ( no cite; going by memory ). Men are, it’s just they are always affeted the same way, more or less to the same degree. Perhaps her “switch” is just more easily tripped, and she ended up with a male level sex drive.

Or perhaps she was exposed to a surge in testosterone at just the right moment before birth ( it happens ), or a combination of the above, or something I haven’t thought of. < shrugs > At this stage of our knowledge of the brain it’s likely that no one could tell even if she wanted to subject herself to some sort of exam.

131

I found the tone of that ad to be, “Yeah, man, I party hearty, BUT THIS IS MY BABY! How can I be a hypocritical sack of shit without their noticing?” I thought it was a good lead-in to catsix’s “Do you believe in free love enough to say so to your little princess?” Because once people become parents, they stop thinking freely and clearly, and become family-values establishment zombies. :rolleyes: Or something.

The difference between us may be that you, like most people, see psychologists as trained professional scientists, and I trust them as far as I can throw George Bush. If they don’t show me their evidence, I assume they’re talking through their hat. Siege and catsix showed their evidence.

I guess the same reason we don’t all instinctively know how to make stuffed filet of sole Newburg to satisfy our innate need for food. Some women are better in bed than others too, just like some men.

Does anyone believe we have proven that men are innately more likely than women to want lots of sex with lots of partners? If so, please repeat that proof for me, 'cause I missed it. (Sociobiology gives plausibility arguments, but not proof, especially given the behavior of our kissing cousins, the bonobos, and seeing how men all over the world in many different cultures are expected to give their offspring lots of their resources.) Because, “women don’t like sex as much because of social pressure, and those women who do like lots of sex are called ‘sluts’ because most women don’t” doesn’t explain anything.

132

I’m not really following the exchange you two are having, so this is kind of a sidetrack, but do you think maybe it has to do with who’s in control? The reason I ask is I dated a woman who liked to be on top, and she would climax very quickly. But the motions she made that got her off did very little for me other than feel mildly pleasant. I’m thinking that perhaps when people say “many women can’t climax during intercourse”, what that really means is they haven’t figured out a way that works for them. As a man, missionary works for me because I’m controlling the stimulation I’m getting. Were it entirely up to my partner, and I gave no feedback as to what I wanted, I think my batting average would be a lot less.

133

What position does that best, IYO?

134

Missionary position does absolutely nothing in most cases to stimulate the clitoris, which is the most sure fire way to cause me (and probably a lot of other women) to have an orgasm. That’s the entire purpose of the clitoris. It exists for sexual pleasure, but because of its location, missionary position intercourse doesn’t tend to stimulate it much at all.

Now when I’m on top, for example, the angles are different and I find that there’s much more in the way of stimulation on the clitoris, typically because it is rubbing against the guy’s pelvic bone, thus the necessary friction is applied. It also seems to work best (at least through for me through years of study) to use a circular motion rather than lateral or vertical motion. It likes to be rubbed, not patted, which is the kind of effect I’ve noticed from missionary position.

That’s not to say I can’t or don’t have orgasms in missionary position, but I usually reach down there and provide that extra little rub that I need.

So, it’s not really (to me) about control. It’s about physics.

Without using other body parts or toys to stimulate the clitoris, cowgirl position works best. When hands and toys become involved in the equation, orgasms can be had in any position.

135

Well, a gentleman should do some rubbing anyway. Before, during, and (sensitivity permitting) after.

136

Boy, I don’t believe I have ever even come close to agreeing with any your posts, catsix. This one? I’m right there with you, lady. How about if we raise them to own themselves, own their bodies, their minds and destinies, feel pride in who they are and what they can become and let them find their path?

As for the drugs thing, my kids have known since they started doing the D.A.R.E. program in freakin’ elementary school that I used to smoke pot and hash. What the hell am I gonna do, lie and them when they’re older, tell them the truth? Gee, what’s the lesson THERE? " I lied when it was easy for me to lie, but don’t like to me" ?? F**k that. I’m human, I did things at various times for various reasons, I tell my kids some things, and not others but man when they asked me about drug use, you betcha.

Ditto on sexual history. They know how old I was when I started being active. Lying will do nothing but make them lie back to me, which as teenagers they do plenty of anyway.

Brainglutton, a gentleman would already know these things. :smiley:

Cartooniverse

137

Hey just a quick pointerooonie here ladies !
If women only went with good looking men then 90%of the human race would die out ,leaving males like myself with the burden of repopulating the planet !

But dont you worry your pretty little heads about it !Im sure youd much rather be spending your time looking up new recipes and making yourselves look nice for your men folk.
Just you leave all that nasty ,complicated thinking to SSSSSSSSSSuuuuugggggar DDDDDadddy!

I think I can hazard a little guess as to who you ll be having hot dreams about tonight !
Sweet dreams Babes everywhere ! KK

138

The same would hold if men only went with good-looking women. How does that explain the double standard?