[QUOTE=Colibri]
I suppose a factual answer could exist, if the FLDS had some written documentation that explicitly justified this policy or doctrine. However, I don’t expect this will be forthcoming here. Since this is about religion, and is controversial by its very nature, GD is probably the best place for it.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
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Thanks for moving this. Sorry about the confusion.
I have no direct experience or cite, but I’m pretty sure that ** Anaamika** has it right. The younger your bride is, the more likely you are to be able to control her. If you wait till she is 18 or so, she is more likely to be thinking for herself – and what’s worse, she’ll have the ability to run away from the community to the real world, and you won’t be able to bring her back at that age.
The founder is on record justifying polygamy. But I can’t find anything about him on record justifying child “brides”.
With men having more than one wife at a time, the supply of females is gonna get scarcer, so younger and younger females will be declared marriageable. Also, girls around 14 or so are starting to develop their own ideas about things, such as life, religion, and who they want to marry. Marrying them off early will saddle them with a couple of kids when they really get the wanderlust. A teenage bride will almost certainly not continue with her schooling, and she won’t be able to get a job or any sort of place outside her little inbred community.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
I don’t know but goddamn those women are fucking scary looking- some enterprising horror movie dirctor should jump on that and film a movie that has FLDS women trying to get young girls from town into their cult. I’m watching Larry King last night and freaking the fuck out seeing these pale faced glassy eyes freaks with 20 foot long braids talking in zombified tones about how blissful their life is. Then one normal looking one who escaped comes on and details how they “break” toddlers by beating them and holding their heads under water until they quit crying and “give in” like horses do? This is scary stuff.
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Well, if you had been raised in that cult, what do you think you’d be like? These kids are completely brainwashed. They’ll have to have major therapy-and I’m sure plenty of them are now convinced that they’re going to Hell.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Well, if you had been raised in that cult, what do you think you’d be like? These kids are completely brainwashed. They’ll have to have major therapy-and I’m sure plenty of them are now convinced that they’re going to Hell.
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You’re right, I didn’t mean to sound harsh towards the women- its totally ‘not their fault’, and I feel sorry for them, but still, to hear the one red head talking on Larry King about how she has paradise on earth was seriously creepy.
[QUOTE=Lynn Bodoni]
With men having more than one wife at a time, the supply of females is gonna get scarcer, so younger and younger females will be declared marriageable. Also, girls around 14 or so are starting to develop their own ideas about things, such as life, religion, and who they want to marry. Marrying them off early will saddle them with a couple of kids when they really get the wanderlust. A teenage bride will almost certainly not continue with her schooling, and she won’t be able to get a job or any sort of place outside her little inbred community.
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The supply of females is also maintained high by kicking out any male who doesn’t toe the line. His wives and children are then assigned to another man.
[QUOTE=burundi]
I agree with you. It’s a sick, fucked-up system. But I’m wondering how they justify it to themselves and to the women and children around them.
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The oldest one, ‘Might makes right’.
Yup, that’s where their might comes from. Head of the religion, his rules. He wants it to be ok to rape little kids, then all he has to say is ‘god said its ok’. When god speaks through someone, it’s funny how often god hates or likes the same thing that person does.
[QUOTE=vibrotronica]
The answer is simple: They’re pedophiles. They want to fuck young girls and they’re using religion to tell themselves it’s OK.
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Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescents. Fifteen year old girls are physically mature. They are statutory rapists.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
The supply of females is also maintained high by kicking out any male who doesn’t toe the line. His wives and children are then assigned to another man.
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The ratio of females to males is further increased by expelling adolescent boys and never-married young men.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescents. Fifteen year old girls are physically mature. They are statutory rapists.
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I heard that quite often it was against the girls’ wills. I’d call them ephebophiles and rapists.
The females are also taught that the only future for them is marriage. By the time they are eighteen, they will probably be considered “old maids” and not marriage material. No woman in that culture could possibly be single or live an independant life.
[QUOTE=Lynn Bodoni]
With men having more than one wife at a time, the supply of females is gonna get scarcer, so younger and younger females will be declared marriageable. Also, girls around 14 or so are starting to develop their own ideas about things, such as life, religion, and who they want to marry. Marrying them off early will saddle them with a couple of kids when they really get the wanderlust. A teenage bride will almost certainly not continue with her schooling, and she won’t be able to get a job or any sort of place outside her little inbred community.
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The barefoot and pregnant scenario.
[QUOTE=Lynn Bodoni]
With men having more than one wife at a time, the supply of females is gonna get scarcer, so younger and younger females will be declared marriageable. Also, girls around 14 or so are starting to develop their own ideas about things, such as life, religion, and who they want to marry. Marrying them off early will saddle them with a couple of kids when they really get the wanderlust. A teenage bride will almost certainly not continue with her schooling, and she won’t be able to get a job or any sort of place outside her little inbred community.
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Another thing the cult uses is isolation. Hard to have fancy ideas about feminism and equality and choice when no one in your universe is allowed to have them (or are beaten down if they do).
[QUOTE=cwthree]
The ratio of females to males is further increased by expelling adolescent boys and never-married young men.
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Yes. That’s how Bill got outside the compound on Big Love.
Are they? I think the females in that cult are assigned to marriages, so it really doesn’t matter what age they are. Older women are re-assigned regularly as men die or are kicked out.
Yeah, that’s certainly true.
The state of Utah (and Arizona too, IIRC) has a document they call “The Primer,” which is used as a training manual to familiarize social workers and law enforcement on relevant aspects of the polygamist cults in their states. A lot of the information in it was taken from interviews from former members of those cults.
It’s here:
http://www.attorneygeneral.utah.gov/polygamy/The_Primer.pdf
Under Age of Consent, it says (mods, since this is a public document I assume it’s OK to post this section - the entire doc is 57 pages and there is another section on marriage which discusses the underage issue as well):
"Some fundamentalists believe a girl should hold off marriage until she is 18 while others believe a girl is ready when she begins menstruating. Many fundamentalist groups rely on Utah marriage laws to determine when a girl can marry. In 2001, the age a girl could legally marry in Utah, with the consent of her parents, was changed from 14 to 16. However, both Utah and Arizona laws forbid sexual relations for unmarried people before age 18 and polygamous marriages are not legally recognized. Many fundamentalist groups forbid sexual relations outside of a marriage commitment no matter the age. In some cases, people work around the law when an under-aged girl is born at home in an isolated group, is home schooled and does not have a birth certificate or other documents to prove her age. In other cases, parents give consent for an under-aged daughter to legally marry a man who does not have any other legal wives. Regardless of the law, some fundamentalist groups use Biblical examples, including Mary, the mother of Jesus, to justify early marriages. During that time, Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months.
Former polygamists say that girls in some communities are married young so they don’t have a chance to get an education or consider other options, such as leaving the group. Others simply believe that it is the woman’s role to bear as many children as possible. Polygamist communities generally link plural marriage with one’s worthiness to enter the highest level of heaven. Although women or young girls may fear or dislike plural marriage, they may believe they will go to hell if they refuse. On the other hand, some fundamentalist groups allow women to further their education and work outside the home."
I expect that’s as close to a factual answer we’re going to get to the OP’s question without talking to someone from one of these cults directly - and, as the document says, not all of them believe in marrying off underage girls.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescents. Fifteen year old girls are physically mature. They are statutory rapists.
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OK. That terminology is cool with me.
When you put it that way, it sounds a lot like the way a troupe of gorillas is organized, doesn’t it? That’s real, serious old-time religion.
Not that they believe that they’re related to gorillas. But they sure act like they are.
[QUOTE=vibrontonica]
When you put it that way, it sounds a lot like the way a troupe of gorillas is organized, doesn’t it? That’s real, serious old-time religion.
Not that they believe that they’re related to gorillas. But they sure act like they are.
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I had the same thought, but then I thought, that’s an insult to gorillas.
If “the authorities” want to protect the children in these cults, they should not remove the children. They should leave the children with their mothers. The trauma and pain experienced by these kids must be terrible!
Take the men away. All of them. Lock them up and then have really slow trials. Let the wheels of the law turn exceedingly slow. Drag things out for years. And years. And years.
Thanks so much, romansperson. That’s exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I agree with the other posters who say that keeping girls uneducated and marrying them off very young is an effective and disgusting means of social control. But it’s interesting to hear how some FLDS men try to justify it.
If you want to have as many kids as possible, then it makes sense, to impregnate your wife as young as possible, and to keep it up as long as you can.
Reminds me of those bragging verses in the Old Testament, describing the old patriarchs, how they all lived to be 1032, had forty wives and hordes and hordes of kids. The verses describe them as the absolute winners.
Wikipedia doesn’t describe the FLDS as ordering men to want the maximum of kids, just to want a maximum of wives, in order to reach some kind of salvation. So the question of the OP is a good one.
But I wouldn’t be surprised the number of kids begotten was the underlying reason.