We on the left are now in a state of continuously calling out and condemning the authoritarian / fascist policies and goals of Trump, MAGAs, QAnon freaks, and the Republican party in general. Biden gave a major speech on the topic. This message is pretty damn loud, and I think the chance is small that a high percentage of the aforementioned groups doesn’t know about it.
What I think is weird is that I have never seen a single denial of the accusation by a member of the aforementioned groups. Not one!*
But the law of large numbers leads me to believe that one of the following things would have happened by now:
A MAGA makes a blog post / YouTube video about how Trump and his followers are unjustly accused of authoritarianism / fascism.
A Republican politician makes a defense of the current state of the Republican party: e.g., “Hey, things are actually fine! Don’t worry!”
Someone in the media, not necessarily a right-winger, defends Trump, MAGA, and the Republican party in a cogent fashion: e.g., “Trump is misunderstood. He doesn’t actually want to be dictator for life.”
It’s fucked up and very, very strange!
Now one potential response, which I think is mostly incorrect, is that all these deplorables have extremely tight message discipline and are avoiding the topic on purpose. I think that that is partially correct in that some of them, including most of the actual politicians, are cagey enough to perceive directly or at least intuit that it is better for them to ignore such accusations than to address them.
Yet, MAGAs tend to be stupid, very stupid (see: MTG) and have big, dumb mouths (see: their God Emperor himself), so when one takes into consideration the aforementioned law of large numbers, there out to be a LOT of MAGA apologetics out there.
Maybe I just don’t go to the right websites or something. Maybe it’s out there?! Help me understand WTF is going on with this–thanks!
*The only thing I’ve seen is some Republicans whining about how the use of the word “fascist” is extreme. I have not seen an actual defense against the accusation.
One little part of it: They honestly think that when Trump talks about third terms and president for life, he is joking. And that when their media says there is a dictatorial deep state, that’s true.
Also, they think a lot of the fascism accusations are so exaggerated to be wrong. Personally, I did find some of predictions in the what-happens-if-Trump-wins thread to be over the top. Trump is on the authoritarian side but far from historical fascists.
No one wants to believe they are wrong and will almost always clutch at any way to banish such thoughts.
I think you are right, but that still doesn’t explain why they don’t get into debates and try to counter the accusations with what you just said they believe…
None of them ever debates anything. They assert, they insult, they attack. That’s all they have. They don’t respond to accusations of fascism because they don’t respond to anything.
This could explain it a bit. They don’t address the accusations because they have such strong, albeit false, accusations of their own that they go on and on about. I.e., they are approaching the debate from the other direction.
Even so, it’s possible to do that while acknowledging how the other side is framing things. People like to debate for fun as well, as the Dope amply proves. So, while granting your point, I still don’t see why MAGAs don’t put up more of a defense.
He tried to overturn the election, and many people were fine with that. I had a highly intelligent (but explicitly authoritarian friend) say that Trump should declare martial law (this was after the election but before January 6). How many elected Republicans would have gone along with that? I bet 80% or more. And would Trump then have endeavored to hold a free and fair election and put his power up for the vote again? Hell no.
I don’t think would have gotten the chance then to prove how Hitlerian he was, as I think the country would have immediately entered Civil War 2.0 (though not necessarily a bloody conflict), and I doubt that the military would have sided with Trump.
I fully think Trump qualifies as a fascist, however, based on criteria academics have established (which I agree with).
Indeed. But why aren’t more MAGAs defending their rightness?
But just to give a data point on the other side, generals don’t like coups, and probably don’t like a Trump. That’s helps explain why successful coups are often led by lower ranking officers.
Fascist personality, I might concede. But after four years of a true American Hitler, I wouldn’t dare to post here. (VPN? Probably would not trust my life with it. YMMV.) And after eight years of Trump (assuming he wins next year), I think SDMB, and independent media, will still be safe for all, and without a VPN.
Agree. Also, they are united and guided by one principle: owning the libs. Their hero and leaders say shit that riles up and outrages the libs, so they get that sweet dopamine hit, and earn cred among the deplorables. Those things they say happen to align with the tenets of fascism, so now there’s a circle feeding itself. Saying fascist stuff outrages the libs, so there is no reason to walk back any of it - in fact, the more it outrages the libs, the better.
Maybe most see accusations of fascist tendencies (which happen to be true) similar to how we process accusations of being communists or socialists—too silly to even respond to. The fact that these respective accusations are not equivalent in their credibility doesn’t mean they see it that way.
In other words, they just roll their eyes, just like we do.
And a healthy dose of believing the other side isn’t a loyal opposition to be debated with. It’s simply traitorous anti-American scum to be eliminated by any means fair or foul.
A standard maxim of land warfare is “Don’t attack over ground the enemy has prepared for you.” Them trying to debate their authoritarianism would be them falling for that. The pols and folks who intend to profit from the coming reich do have the message discipline to stay quiet about what it means, although not about what they’ll do. The rank and file MAGAts will simply echo some what-about-ism, e.g. “what about her emails” 5 years after the fact, or “Hunter Biden’s laptop” now. In their simplistic view of the world, that counter-accusation utterly neuters any incoming accusations of Fascism.
They don’t want to win any sort of intellectual contest. They want to win, and retain, Power. Pure Simple Untrammeled Perpetual Power.
It took time for Hitler to completely reshape his political landscape, too. Trump wasn’t (quite) able to completely destroy the institutions of democracy, but he did a lot of damage to them. Would those institutions survive another four years? I hope not to find out.
This ⇡. They may be on the path towards fascism, as I’m on the path toward socialism, but to them the accusation is meritless until it hits Hitler. I’d further wage that they don’t all really understand “fascism” as something separate from the events of World War II, i.e. that many believe it’s impossible to be a fascist in modern times, and so it’s a bit like getting called a Roundhead or something.
Listening to Trump speak, he throws a veritable word salad at the audience describing his enemies as, “Marxist, fascist, socialist, radial liberals,” sometimes all in the same sentence. None of the MAGAts need to refute similar accusations because Trump’s opponents are simultaneously communist and fascist. As always when it comes to MAGATs, when they point one finger at you the others are pointing right back at them.
I think we do defend our policies, etc., that are called “socialist” and in effect defend against such accusations.
Although it’s easy to dismiss “communist” and “socialist” as epithets simply thrown at us without sincerity, I there there is a policy debate to be found in that interaction. Although Liberal overall and a bit more leftist than that in certain areas, I don’t want government overreach and inefficiency either, and I certainly don’t think communism is a desirable or workable system.
In contrast, the accusations of “fascism” from our side come from our screaming warnings about an impending catastrophe. Of course, the other side doesn’t give a rat’s ass, but my point about someone in the media explaining why it’s all OK is a point left unaddressed. (I read National Review a lot–well, until free articles run out–and there are anti-Trump writers on there, and there were some that were in favor of him in the last election, but I have yet to see any apologetics post-Jan. 6. Maybe they got rid of their Trumpist columnists…).
But don’t the MAGAs as well? If there’s a specific policy that is criticized as proto-fascist, don’t they defend the policy as we do? My speculative point is that in doing so, they basically ignore the fascist label, in the same way we ignore the accusation of our descent into Marxism when we defend, for example, tuition debt relief.
And again, to be clear, I’m speculating as to the MAGA mindset, not at all suggesting that there’s an equivalence in general between Biden and Trump policies / ideologies.
This was a very important precursor event that tends to be forgotten these days:
This points to why it was a good chunk easier for Hitler to take over in what the Nazis called the Gleichschaltung - Wikipedia.
I think we’d see the opposite thing happening in the event of Trump or the GOP ending democracy and taking over: entire states and regions simply giving the would-be Nazis the bird. I actually thought this would happen if Trump were elected again in 2020. It will absolutely, definitely happen if Trump should be elected in 2024; the only question is whether it would happen instantaneously or soon thereafter.
This is a big part of it. I’ve seen a lot of quotes from MAGA supporters – both politicians and ordinary citizens – who seem to strongly feel that they are waging a desperate battle for the very survival of the country as they know it. They seem to fully believe that liberals are not just wrong in their views, but are actually evil, and are actively attempting to destroy America.
With that sort of mindset, a “by any means necessary” authoritarian / fascist approach to politics is OK, in their books. They feel that, to prevent America’s destruction, they need to keep liberals and Democrats from ever having power again.
Around here at the last mid-term elections many rightists campaigned on a platform of “This is your last chance to save your country before it’s destroyed forever” The message totally resonated with a lot of the more propaganda-besotted members of the Right.