The modern message of the gospel is “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.” However, our idea of “wonderful” and the world’s may be a little different. Take a sinner through the pages of the Book of Acts and show him the terrifying scene of boulders breaking the bones of Stephen. Then smile and whisper, "Wonderful. . . " Listen together to the sound of a cat-o’-nine-tails as it rips the flesh off the back of the apostle Paul. Follow together the word “suffering” through the Epistles, and see if you can get the world to whisper, “Wonderful!” After such a ride down Honesty Road, they may think the pleasures of sin are a little more attractive than the call to “suffer affliction with the people of God.” John MacArthur said, “We need to adjust our presentation of the gospel. We cannot dismiss the fact that God hates sin and punishes sinners with eternal torment. How can we begin a gospel presentation by telling people on their way to hell that God has a wonderful plan for their lives?” Who in the world is going to listen if we are so blatantly honest about the Christian life? Perhaps not as many as are attracted by the talk of a wonderful plan. However, the answer to our dilemma is to make the issue one of righteousness, rather than happiness. This is what Jesus did. He used the Ten Commandments to show sinners the righteous standard of God (Luke 10:25,26; 18:18– 0). Once the world sees the perfect standard by which they will be judged, they will begin to fear God, and through the fear of the Lord, men depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6). They will begin to hunger and thirst after the righteousness that is in Jesus Christ alone. If you study the New Testament you will see that God’s love is almost always given in direct correlation to the cross: herein is love, for God so loved, God commended His love, etc. (See John 3:16; Romans 5:5,6,8; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 2:4,5; 5:2,25; 1 John 3:16; 4:10; and Revelation 1:5, among others.) The cross is the focal point of God’s love for the world. How can we point to the cross without making reference to sin? How can we refer to sin without the Law (Romans 7:7)? The biblical way to express God’s love to a sinner is to show him how great his sin is (using the Law—see Romans 7:13; Galatians 3:24), and then give him the incredible grace of God in Christ. This was the key to reaching so many on the Day of Pentecost. They were “devout” Jews who knew the Law and its holy demands, and therefore readily accepted the mercy of God in Christ to escape its fearful wrath. When you use the Law to show the world their true state, get ready for sinners to thank you. For the first time in their lives, they will see the Christian message as an expression of love and concern for their eternal welfare, rather than of merely proselytizing for a better lifestyle while on this earth.
Well, I guess your version of God doesn’t have a wonderful plan for my life. Apparently, your deity is a vengeful tyrant who condemns people to an eternity of suffering in His own private torture chamber.
I’m very glad that your deity is just primitive superstition because He sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant fellow. I don’t understand how apparently intelligent people can reconcile their idea of God as Joe Stalin in the clouds with the traditional Christian doctrines of repentance and forgiveness.
Well, if that was the end of the gospel, I’d guess you’d have a point. But it’s not. God, who is so rich in mercy, and not willing that any would perish, has sent his son to die on our behalf. But it’s then not fear that motivates someone, it’s the knowledge that God has done something for us so great that to worship Him and listen to Him isn’t something that we do out of fear.
You know, if I ever met an evangelist who practiced a genuine effort to rid his own life of all sin, I might be willing to listen to his screed about how horrible his own least favorite sin is. I might even be willing to accept that his passion came from an overwhelming desire to save some sinner from damnation.
But it hasn’t happened yet.
There are no good sins, or bad sins.
Shopping, fornicating, praying in public, it’s all the same. It separates you from God, and without God, you die. Hell is not having God to save your soul from destruction. Destruction is your nature. You are not immortal on your own.
Jesus can save you; evangelists only want praise or money.
The bible is a book.
Jesus is the Word.
And please don’t tell me who Jesus isn’t going to save. You don’t know, and expressing your opinion about it is a sin. Save your own ass. It’s the only one you have a chance with, and you are going to need help.
Poly my beloved brother, we have to love them. It’s hard, but we have been given much, and of us, is much expected. Read this very thread, and you will see how much is needed. Bear up, in joy, and know that He shall save them, every one, if only they will be saved.
Seige, you rock! Watch out, or someone will build a church on you. I love you. And the answer to your question is that it looks to each of us that each other one of us is wrong about God. That has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with us. We are all wrong. It would really suck, but for one thing. God isn’t wrong. Our opinions don’t matter to anyone but us.
Tris
laigle
Since you recognize those who espouse “fundamentalist religions belief”, I would like your help in defining the following principles of Christianity from the fundamentalist viewpoint; I understand a little of what each Christian denomination believes, but I don’t understand what the fundamentalist viewpoint is. For this reason, I have asked you to help.
Please provide the “fundamentalist” definition of;
Atonement.
Baptism.
Church Organization.
Heaven-Hell.
Ecclesiastical Authority.
Faith in Christ.
God.
Jesus Christ.
Godhead.
Virgin Birth.
Holy Ghost.
Holy Bible.
Trinity.
Salvation.
Second Coming of Christ.
After-death life.
Miracles.
Resurrection.
Revelations.
Sacrament.
Satan.
Thank You.
Siege, you really should answer that call to the priesthood. You have a gift for witnessing and and genuine compassion. Christianity needs more people like you.
Svt4Him
Even Satan quotes verses. Stop worshipping that book, and start worshipping the Word.
So, has anyone noticed that, in a thread which started off with my asking why some Christians don’t respect my experience with God, we’re attacking Svt4Him’s personal experience with God? Much as I appreciate the compliments, folks, I think I need to go and get a beam out of my eye. You see, this wasn’t my initial response to Svt4Him’s posts.
CJ
Good post, Svt. I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to overcome the disconnect between what you’re saying and what I’m saying, but let me try again:
God’s wrath is not our wrath. Ours is tinged with anger and hatred and other sinful traits; His’s is pure justice. God’s righteousness is not ours, for ours is built on pride and a sense of being “better” than someone else, and a refusal to recognize our dependence on Him. His is pure unadulterated goodness. If we judge, we have to compromise between justice and mercy. His justice is pure mercy.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that He is righteousness, or wrath, or justice; they are attributes of Him, not the core of His nature. Only two of these abstract qualities are ever equated to Him (which does not mean identity between Him and them, but rather that they are at the core of His being.
And those two are Wisdom and Love.
We cannot aspire to His wisdom; our minds are not built for omniscience. It is all the best of us can do to grasp the difference between eternal and everlasting, and how that demonstrates that His predestined plan and our free wills are not in conflict.
But any one of us, from the smallest of children on up, can love as He loves. And therefor this is His cmmandement: that we love even as He has loved us.
I’m commanded not to judge anyone else’s sins, but I know that my own sins are such that, if I were to judge myself by His standards of perfection and total commitment, I would and do fall short, and deserve whatever punishment I could dream up.
But His justice, which is perfect mercy, says that He loves me enough to die in my place – and did do just that – and that if I will just trust Him, He will take what goodness there is in me, strengthen it, teach me, cleanse me of the tendency to keep on sinning, and refit me to stand before Him. This is not the act of a penal court judge, condemning for sin, but of a loving Father who corrects error and helps His child to grow in the way that He knows best for that child – even if the child at first does not recognize this and rebels. And that, my friend, is why, out of all the possible titles and appelations for God that the Old Testament gives, our Lord, who better than anyone knows the heart and mind of God, always calls Him Abba – Father – literally “Daddy.”
And it’s an ongoing process. He’s been at it for 20 years now. One of His biggest breakthroughs came when He put in place the mutual love between me and the man whom I call my son, though he was a month short of his 17th birthday when I first met him. He had given each of us the gifts and talents needed to heal the hurts and reach behind the barricades of the other. And He used each of us to heal and teach the other. (And if, having heard that, you cannot understand how it is that I can recognize that two men can love each other romantically, then we are truly at an impasse.)
What has been the point that I have dwelt on in debating with you, has been that in focusing on man’s sin and God’s anger at it, there’s been no question that you are motivated by caring and giving a sincere warning, from your point of view, about God’s wrath – it’s that your misrepresenting Him. It is with absolutely no intent to mock or condemn that I tell you that the unchurched here are reading your message as “God hates you, but I love you, and I’ll tell you how to get around His judgment.” I know very well that that is not what you or any other evangelical is saying – but that’s how it’s being heard and read.
As always, Tris is right. I do not mean in any way to condemn you or your message – just to alert you to how it is being misunderstood.
Peace.
The act of discarding old, false beliefs and accepting those of the speaker.
An aquatic ritual only meaningful and proper when performed at birth, during adulthood, by sprinkling, or by immersion, with a certain set of incantations.
The people who keep and spend the donation money on god’s behalf.
Places of extreme pleasure or torment, reserved for the friends and enemies of the speaker, respectively.
The right by which the speaker carries out action contrary to all doctrine.
Agreement with the speaker.
The being that gives the speaker authority above all others.
Hmm, think he was in the bible somewhere. Couldn’t have been that important though.
The more poetic name forf the speaker’s ego.
A patently false and laughable event which must be assented to and endorsed to prove mental subsurvience.
Also, the reason for all those silly hats with wimples in the Dark Ages.
That part of the Trinity which must necessarily exist because three sounds better than two.
A magic tome which provides the speaker with absolute authority. Interestingly, the contents of the tome are at best irrelevant, and often heretical. It is the object itself, not the ideas inside, that provide authority.
Functions best when thumped, waved, held above the head, sworn on, but by no means opened.
A variation on maripois used in parts of the American Southeast. Contains onion, celery, and bell pepper.
Delivery from the burdens of freedom and thought.
An indistinct period where a great conflict will occur in which the speaker’s enemies will be painfully killed before being thrown into eternal torment by a loving, merciful god. Often precipitated by the arrival of law enforcements or the proper mixing of the magic Koolaid.
An invention used because fictional laudings of the speaker and punishments of his/her enemies during their lifespan would be merely finite, and as such not sufficient for the grandeur they carry.
Extraordinary events occuring in the distant unwitnessed past or in solitude, which lend credence to the arguments of the speaker. Such events may never be produced at will, as this would be testing the lord, and more importantly the speaker.
The pregame show to the speaker’s eventual and certain enthronement.
A book which, much like the bible itself, can be used to prove anything. Revelations, however, works much better in the future tense, with the rest of the work being preferable for the past and present.
A favor done for the speaker which is a precursor to salvation.
A despicable being who attacks god by showing man reason. In form, Satan is usually depicted as a deominc being with cloven hoofs, a tail, and wings. He is also provided with a prodigious quantity of servants, presumably the afterforms of the philosophers, scientists, and mathmeticians who have dared to disagree with the speaker, and by extension god.
Because of their hideous form, Satan and his servants often use their powers of deception to walk abroad in the guise of men. Even in this guise they will be recognized immediately as those in the crowd that remain unconvinced by the speaker and deride his ideas.
Thank You Liege for helping me understand what fundamentalist is. I’m a little confused in this though, of all the principles you addressed, you seemed to be better versed in Satan than any of the other ones. It looks as though you are saying Satan exists, but God doesn’t. Is that possible? An evil being with super powers, but not a benevolent one?
Thanks
Thank You Liege for helping me understand what fundamentalist is. I’m a little confused in this though, of all the principles you addressed, you seemed to be better versed in Satan than any of the other ones. It looks as though you are saying Satan exists, but God doesn’t. Is that possible? An evil being with super powers, but not a benevolent one?
Thanks
I’d like to expand on Ultrafilter’s remark here.
It’s not so much that other people can’t believe that their beliefs are wrong, but they’re so sure theirs are right and therefore everyone else’s much be wrong!
I think this is an inherent fault of monotheism and hence, the crux of the problem. People see two (or more) different and seemingly incompatible belief systems. Since they’re certain their own viewpoint is right, any others must be wrong. Therefore they, apparently, refuse to take the time to understand the puzzle presented to them and instead, use it as justification of their own viewpoint and in doing so, pave the road to hell.
Polycarp
Badchad, valid points that deserve addressing.
I would use a stronger word than valid. How about “crushing blows” to every point I responded to?
If you ever feel like doing me the courtesy of presuming that I hold my views sincerely, and arguing against them in a perspective that gives some respect to that presumption, I’ll be glad to give the best defense I can for my views.
I suppose that you are probably sincere in your views, but I must say, they are so contradictory from one day to the next that I think the self deception you go through must be incredible. For example, I cite that Paul endorses slavery, then you retort Paul is an idjit, and you only follow the teachings of Jesus, which I objectively demonstrated that you didn’t. Then later with regards to the Ten Commandments, which Jesus endorsed, you let Paul, (the idjit) supersede the teachings of Jesus, again contradicting yourself. Excuse me if I don’t respect that kind of twisted logic. I know you can write 1000 page flowery paragraphs, which when one finishes reading them they forget what you were responding to, but the fact remains the contradictions still stand. If you don’t think so then I invite you to give it your best shot, not only on what I outlined in this paragraph but what I posted above as well.
I attempted that once, and what I got back from you were comments with the same tone as the apocryphal “Have you quit beating your wife yet?”
I don’t believe you. I think you didn’t like that I chose to call a spade a spade and do away with your apologetic euphemisms and use more accurate terms for admissions you had already made. That and the fact that you long winded flowery writing style did not make me forget that you were doing poor job of explaining your contradictions. Still as you wrote above, you think the points I raised do deserve addressing and a such I again encourage you to do so. Sure you may not like my personality, but there may be some other unbelievers out there who will be turned from the dark side by the lucidity of your responses. I would imagine you would find that a fair trade off. If however you think your responses will be inadequate and would actually lesson the chance of saving an unbelievers soul, then by all means hide it under a bushel.
Gobear:
Sorry, Svt, but there is not a jot of difference between your version of Christianity and that of a fundamentalist mullah who is convinced God will punish non-Muslims. You are selling Fear; specifically, you are selling people the idea that they must swear fealty to the Divine Tyrant or be subjected to eternal torture.
I like you Gobear but in all fairness to Svt4him, this is Christian message loud and clear as read from their textbook, with plenty of support from the gospels too.
You people always dwell on hellfire and damnation, and you make God sound no different than Satan…
If the shoe fits…
Why do you never speak instead of a God who loves His creatures so much that He wishes them to be happy, that He wishes them to know eternal joy? Why do you never speak of the renewal God can bring into people’s lives right here, right now?
I would say that this view does not fit very well with the world around us.
One thing I know about fundies who preach hellfire sermons is that they do not understand the New Testament. The key to understanding Jesus’s mission is John 3:16-20
But like Polycarp you have to ignore a whole bunch of scary stuff to pick out a little nice stuff. You can do the same thing with Mein Kampf.
The message of Christianity is that mankind is fallen, estranged form God by its own sinful, flawed nature. Only through submission to God’s mercy as minstered by Jesus’s Atonement and Resurrection can humans be transformed from weak, rebellious creatures to shining children of God.
Yeah, but you see right through that BS don’t you Gobear.
God wishes all people to be saved.
In which case being all powerful and creating us to his specifications he could easily have us all be saved. Too bad according to Jesus narrow is the gate that leads to salvation.
If humans reject God’s charity and go their own ways, they will never reach that joy and bliss of the Kingodm of God but wander in darkness
When Jesus described hell in the gospels it sounded a lot worse than wandering in the darkness.
What you people need to preach is NOT hellfire and fear…
But that is what Jesus frequently preached is it not?
That you do not do this shows that you not understand the Gospels.
Or maybe he understands the gospels better than most are giving him credit for, only those who are of this world don’t like the message.
Siege:
Svt4Him, I spent my youth standing up to bullies who told me I must become like them or else and defending others who were told the same. I have never joined any organization or accepted someone’s words out of fear and condemnation, only out of love and acceptance. My knees have shaken with awe and I have trembled in the presence of God, yet I recall each time He spoke to one of His servants through His angels, the first thing the angel said was, “Be not afraid.” I do not believe He wishes me to fear Him…
Jesus Seige, (that’s a blaspheme not literal use:)) it’s only a few posts above where I quoted Jesus making it quite clear that you should fear him. I’ll quote your god again for those of you over stricken with selective memory.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Polycarp:
God’s wrath is not our wrath. Ours is tinged with anger and hatred and other sinful traits
I have $10,000 that I will wager with you that I can find scriptural support that god does indeed tinge his wrath with anger. Will you take that bet or rather retract your statement.
His’s is pure justice.
Aside from your assertion and his fiat what evidence do you have to support this?
God’s righteousness is not ours, for ours is built on pride and a sense of being “better” than someone else, and a refusal to recognize our dependence on Him. His is pure unadulterated goodness.
If not for pride why is god so demanding that we praise and worship him?
If we judge, we have to compromise between justice and mercy. His justice is pure mercy.
Then explain hell to me again.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that He is righteousness, or wrath, or justice; they are attributes of Him, not the core of His nature.
So today, we again accept scripture as evidence enough. Tomorrow?
We cannot aspire to His wisdom; our minds are not built for omniscience. It is all the best of us can do to grasp the difference between eternal and everlasting, and how that demonstrates that His predestined plan and our free wills are not in conflict.
This seems important.
Is this another way of you saying, “my reasoning suggests that predestination and free will are in conflict, but we can’t understand god’s will?” Which if you applied that logic consistently you might say that “my reasoning suggests that it is not immoral to be homosexual, but then again we can’t understand god’s will.
Are these points lost on you Polycarp?
I’m commanded not to judge anyone else’s sins, but I know that my own sins are such that, if I were to judge myself by His standards of perfection and total commitment, I would and do fall short, and deserve whatever punishment I could dream up.
Do you really think that having been created imperfectly and predestined to sin that you are deserving of eternal torment? I know you personally prefer that hell is allegorical, but if it weren’t then you really think you deserve it?
But His justice, which is perfect mercy
Do you really think his justice is perfect mercy? If you do then why do you try to downplay the reality of hell?
(And if, having heard that, you cannot understand how it is that I can recognize that two men can love each other romantically, then we are truly at an impasse.)
I can understand how people can lie, cheat, steal and kill but that does not mean god didn’t call it sin.
What has been the point that I have dwelt on in debating with you, has been that in focusing on man’s sin and God’s anger at it, there’s been no question that you are motivated by caring and giving a sincere warning, from your point of view, about God’s wrath – it’s that your misrepresenting Him.
I have noticed a lot of misrepresentation of god’s word (if it is in anyway represented in the bible) around here and let me tell you Polycarp. Get that log out of your eye.
Badchad
No doubt you will also tempt Him in the wilderness. Selective is as selective does — you are doing quite a bit of selecting. My only question is what “god” are you talking about? The Bible or something?
Badchad:
While you are correct in your assumption that I do not believe in any religion or deities, you are wrong in your conception of the basis of Christian faith. Even if you do not embrace a religion, you ought, for the sake of honesty, to criticize it accurately. You have chosen instead to sketch a broad caricature of Christianity and then scorn the sincere Christians in the thread as hypocrites because they do not embrace your strawman.
Atheists like us can disagree with the believers without being dishonest or discourteous.