cite?
Gimme a break!
Margin was, i assume, speaking from personal experience, either her own or people she knows.
As a guy, i can also testify that i’ve known guys who get rejected and then start accusing the woman of being a “dyke” or “frigid” or a “bitch.”
Sure, her comment that “no one sees anything wrong with it” might have been a bit hyperbolic, but this whole thread is asking for people’s opinions, not for some indisputable solution or explanation. Why didn’t you ask anyone else for a cite?
And, Ludovic, just a hint:
The “O” in “IMHO” stands for “opinion.”
“Scarily”?!?
“Scarily” gots nothing to do with it. There is nothing wrong with the theory of wooing that says, “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again.” Where guys go wrong is when they take “try, try again” to mean “Try, try again and try, and try, and then try some more, etc.” After you’ve gotten shot down 2 or 3 times, she’s not interested so move on. But most good salesmen do not take that first “no” for a final answer.
This is, I believe, the great mental chasm that separates us, PatrickM. It wouldn’t even occur to me to consider myself a salesman while talking to women. It’s not a game to me. It’s not a competition. It’s not a sport. It’s not some great maze of trickery and deception. And I cannot understand why it would be thought of as such.
Personally, I prefer the method Ferret Herder describes in the thread I linked to. That’s what screams “real man” to me, not drunkenly running after women who’ve shown their lack of interest. For me, one “no” is enough. Pursuing after that first “no” would make me feel pathetic.
Uh, ludovic, don’t take this the wrong way, but piss off.
I have to add, too, that I sometimes wonder if the whole persistance thing isn’t because they’re showing off for their buddies. Nice guys don’t do this, but then again, I’d speculate nice guys are usually getting asked out by women. And by nice guys I mean guys who are…nice. Considerate. And so on. God, I hate mornings before coffee.
I have to add this comment, too, because it’s kind of disturbing:
Successful at what?
Make that “Before we met**,** my wife . . .”
Freud wept.
Surely it’s a delicate dance. Woman who say yes on the first go-round are in danger of being called the nasty word. That means that it is all men’s fault of course :D.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree, Priceguy. Pursuing after that first “no” is giving the woman the chance to correct her initial mistake. If she persists in repeating that mistake then it is her loss and time to move on.
(And who said anything about drunken pursuit, and what gives you the right to malign salesmen by equating it to a mere game? Selling is a way of life, an art and is a way by which people support themselves and feed their families. I never said sales were a game, and you wouldn’t either if you were working on commission. Try reading Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People” or or Arthur Miller’s “Death of a Salesman” sometime.)
I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but I’m getting arrogance overload here. You’re assuming that not wanting to date you is a mistake?
So is football, soccer and tennis, and they’re games.
Going major league hijack here, but sales are a game, and I don’t see how that is maligning or pejorative. Many worthwhile pursuits are games. Why do you equate sales with “wooing”, or whatever you wish to call it? You’re the one who brought it up.
All I’m saying is that I don’t see the attraction of the mind game that most people seem to have going on while dating. Honesty, respect, these things build relationships. Not playing games.
That would be successful at ‘getting women to engage in hot nasty sex.’ Sorry if that was unclear.
I mean, no one here is talking about finding your soul-mate this way. We’re talking about a guy pursuing a woman that he would like to shag, right? And quite often, though it is repellent to me, men that use these hard-sell tactics are quite successful in getting women to sleep with them.
I just get tired of hearing from female friends ‘He’s such a jerk’ after being involved with someone like the OP described.
He was a jerk before you fucked him…you just thought that it was cute then.
Patrick, you need help you poor thang! With all your references to 1950’s novelists and the above attitude to dating, you seem to be stuck in some kind of time-warp.
If you really approach women like that, surely the only mistake the woman would make is giving you the time of day in the first place.
quote]I just get tired of hearing from female friends ‘He’s such a jerk’ after being involved with someone like the OP described.
He was a jerk before you fucked him…you just thought that it was cute then.
[/quote]
Oh, yeah, you’re totally right. I get so tired of guys being 100 % honest with me on the first date: “Why, hi, yes, I’m Jim, and I’m married, but my wedding ring is in my pocket.” And then, of course, becaues I’m stupid, I go out with them.
People act their best when they’re trying to impress somebody. There’s lots of people who don’t find jerkhood attractive, as many of the posters here have already pointed out. I don’t fuck jerks and I don’t find them attractive, but neither do I find it attractive when said jerks get all whiny at being told to fuck off.
Uh, no. Turning down somebody with that attitude is never a mistake.
And ‘successful at what?’ was more intended to be ironic, because the overly-persistant tactic appears to be successful only at pissing women off. So, bravo.
Just a question. Do guys of the overly-pushy type have decent buddies or what? Because you’d think if the guy’s buddies were halfway decent or sober, isn’t it their job to tell the guy he’s being a jerk? I have to say, I’ve appreciated exactly that happening. But what are the buddies doing? Are they going along with him, out of passivity, or do they think the
Damned kitten on the keyboard. Are obnoxious Boy’s buddies just going along with him out of passivity, or do they think it’s okay to be that pushy?
and it’s my Opinion that you shouldn’t paint with such a broad brush if you don’t want snarky comments 
I guess I’m “no one” since I’ve never thought a girl was a “Bitch” when she did that to me…of course, it’s only happened once or twice. The once or twice I’ve seen it happen to others i haven’t seen comments like that, either, although they’ve been called that, and worse, in other situations.
Pixelle, margin, I can’t help thinking that we may be talking at cross-purposes here. You’re probably thinking about the time you had clearly and unequivocally told a guy off and he still wouldn’t lay off.
OTOH PatrickM seems to be thinking of cases where a girl says something which is open to multiple interpretation, maybe with a little smile, which may show interest but could also be a gentle way of saying no. For example, after asking someone out: “No, I’m busy tonight.”, “Maybe some other time” etcetera. I see no way of telling whether this is a polite ‘no’ or just an invitation for further negotiation. So you try again a little later, in good humour and showing that you won’t mind if she’s not interested. I honestly can’t see how that can do any harm.
The same may hold if a girl just says “No, I’d rather not.” when you ask her out. It may be that she thinks you are not her type, and if you continue to talk a little, she may reconsider and think you may be fun. Again, for such a case I don’t see the harm. What would Pride and prejudice have amounted to if Darcy wouldn’t have had the guts to try again later? 
Yeah, well, I have to say, Darcy doesn’t show up a lot around these parts. I don’t know about Pixelle, but I’m not just talking about once—guys not taking no is pretty common, as several other posters have made clear, and while the verdict is mixed, there’s plenty of cases where it is disturbing. And ParickM wasn’t specifying some equivocation on the woman’s part, from that quote: it’s pure conceit. Turning him down for a date, in his opinion, is a mistake.
I think comparing real life to the movies just shows how we got in this pickle in the first place. I mean, if lots of guys think it’s going to work for them because it worked for Tom Hanks or whoever, and never realize that it worked because it’s Tom Hanks (or whoever) then bringing up movies again, just keeps it going in a circle. Not good.
margin: again I have to concede that there are lots of assholes around there. I’ve seen enough who made me ashamed to be a man. :rolleyes: I realize the OP was speaking about such men.
I still hope, however, that you understand it is disheartening for us guys who want to avoid that kind of behaviour to be tarred with the same broad brush, whenever we don’t immediately run away whenever a girl whispers ‘no’. If a girl says ‘no’ when a guy asks her to dance, but doesn’t turn away, and continues in some light conversation, is it wrong if the guy after half an hour of chit-chat asks again? If your answer to this is: ‘yes, this is very wrong’, I’m afraid there is not much more to be said. Other than that I’m really sorry that you’ve been hurt so bad by men. 
The reference to Darcy was to bring a bit of levity into this debate, which is turning up far too heated to my taste. I also gave you other examples which you didn’t go into. If you find it wrong that I tried to show that there are shades of gray, again I guess there is not much left that can be said.
Debates on topics like these always make me sad.
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- Guys persist because girls like to be pursued. Sometimes they do change their minds, for whatever reason. Not that it is the beginning of a lifelong relationship, but that’s not usually what people are looking for anyway.
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- Guys persist because girls like to be pursued. Sometimes they do change their minds, for whatever reason. Not that it is the beginning of a lifelong relationship, but that’s not usually what people are looking for anyway.
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- Also, women like to be “taken”, “ravaged” or what-have-you. They generally don’t want to deal with coaxing a shy guy along at all. A good percentage of the women I have slept with were this way, and asking guy friends, they agreed also. By the time they are 25 or so, most guys have already learned well that the best bet for getting laid is to press the situation; what the girl says doesn’t always matter–it’s what they do that counts, and (in mainstream US culture) many will give in.
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Sigh…yet another misconception women have about men. We nice guys lose every time. EVERY TIME! We are nice and get nothing in return. Nothing, I say!
Okay, not really. But a lot of the time it sure seems to be the case.