Why Don't Some Men Take "No" For an Answer?

In My Humble Opinion
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Look, guys, there’s a whole world of difference between being swept off one’s feet and being pressured into sex. And yes, “pressing the situation” to get laid is exactly the latter. If you do this, you’re a jerk, plain and simple.

There’s also a difference between giving in and enjoying something, but we’ll take it one lesson at a time so as to not overtax anyone.

I also have to wonder how many of the guys defending the persistence method get annoyed when telemarketers hear the word “no” and keep talking.

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heheheheheheh :eek:

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Well, yes, but the OP asked 'Why Don’t Some Men Take “No” For an Answer". Now the female posters seem to change the subject to: “Men, Take No for an Answer”. If that’s what we’re talking about, fine with me, I completely agree with you, but I don’t think I need that lesson. In that case feel free to rant on without me. IMHO in that case this thread would belong in the Pit.

To be fair, it is true that the OP seems to talk about being pressured into sex, which is a big no-no, and to which indeed no real grey areas should apply. But if the subject is about the more innocious subject of dating, I don’t think that you should apply the same strictness.

For the remainder of this post I’m assuming that I am allowed to talk about the dating confusion. Please ignore if that would be outside the bounds of the OP.

I’ve suggested that in some or even many cases there may be a miscommunication because men may not always be sure that a no is a definite no. I’ve tried repeatedly to find out in fact where is the difference between the one and the other, only to be shot down. That’s not really helping the communication between sexes. Again, feel free to rant, but if you want to convince those men who harrassed you, I’m pretty sure that they are not posting in this thread.

In contrast to what some women may think, men are not telepathic. In fact, some or even many men may have a little less sensitivity for little signals than women do, or men may have a different way of sending out signals. Combine this with women not all being the same, and we have a sure-fire recipe for confusion.

You may be sure that you mean ‘no’ when you say ‘I can’t, but maybe later’, but for a guy that is not clearly a definite no (it is very likely a polite way to say no). So he asks again, if and when a proper occasion arises, to see if the girl wanted to leave options open, or possibly has changed her mind. I really can’t see that this has anything to do with pressuring someone into sex.

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Tuscalan, I’m not talking about women who whisper, no, either. I don’t know that’s even been mentioned, and it’s kind of an interesting turn of phrase, because it really does seem to indicate a passive female, trying to put on an act. I know you’re trying to inject some levity, but I have to feel rather a bit of impatience when it really does seem that there’s two separate and parallel conversations going on. We’re not asking you to scurry away like startled deer. We just want you to pay some attention, okay?

I just don’t think it’s that complicated an issue. I mean, I’ve been in situations where I know I’ve been doing everything but waving a sign, saying, “Hey, asshole, you’re making me uncomfortable! Leave me the fuck alone,” and the guy’s behavior made me too nervous to be blunt. Evidently, that’s playing hard to get, but is body language that hard to read? I don’t know if these are good guys on a bad night or whatever, and I can’t say that I know any of these game playing women, because my friends are all geeky female erotica writers.

But to turn the tables, maybe it’s the guys asking for trouble by going after game-playing women? I used to have a buddy who would never, ever, ask out a girl unless she was spectacular looking. Never. Nice personality? He just didn’t care. But he would turn around and bitch about how women were evil and so on. My impression is that high-maitenance women have to give off some signal well before the game-playing starts.

And Lord Ashtar why is it a misconception that nice guys get asked out? I do my fair share of it, and, well, I actually like nice, geeky guys. Maybe that’s self-selecting too.

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Thanks for your reply, margin. These things are difficult, and indeed there seem to be two discussions going on here. And it may very well be that I’m off base here.

I’m also afraid my previous post may be a bit too snarky, so I’ll back out of this thread before it gets out of control. I apologize if I got this thread off track; this stuff is something I’m seriously thinking about, but I shouldn’t bother you all with it.

To close off: I also get very irritated with guys who won’t accept a ‘no’ for an answer. I’ve witnessed it sufficiently often. So good for you if you tell these guys off. What I said in my previous posts wasn’t meant to make you feel guilty about that. On the contrary: here’s a cheer for all women who don’t let themselves be intimidated! :slight_smile:

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Pixelle and others, thanks for your “concern” but it’s soooo unnecessary. And stop calling me Shirley.

For you and others similarly unconvinced by my previous comments, allow me to amend them to say that being a little persistent in asking a woman for date gives the woman the chance “to change her mind” rather than “correct her mistake.” Feel better and/or sufficiently empowered, now?

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Nah, I was just kidding. We can’t get through an entire thread about this subject without some guy complaining that “nice guys” are always getting the short end of the stick, now can we?

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Lord Ashtar—of course. I’m in a terribly earnest mood this morning.

Thank you, Tuscalan, but I don’t want you to leave the thread. Your reply got me thinking yet again.

I’ve got a lot of male friends, and there’s this persistant problem with a lot of them----the ‘mysterious female’ syndrome. And I hate that. What ‘mysterious’ means, is high-maintenance, and very high-ticket, too. I mentioned my buddy with the expensive taste in girls; he’s the perfect example. Some girls are friends to him, and others are potential dates. Never the twain shall meet, which seems to me to be the root of the problem. The rest of us aren’t high-mainteance, so we’re too boring to bother with, I guess, but boy, those ‘mysterious’ girls! They were unattainable; they were challenging. Meanwhile, the nice girls that these guys wound up with—I can’t think of a single one of these ‘mysterious girls’ who married into our circle—were plain-spoken and so on.
I have to ask: How are we supposed to tell the nice guys from the jerks, if they’re both equally persistant? I mean, flirting is one thing. Flirtin takes some time and attention, and acts as a little foreplay. The impression I’m getting is that we’re talking about a fairly abrupt scenario in a bar, without much build up. Offer the girl your phone number, let her have the reins. If she likes you, she’ll call you. But the pressure here appears to be accumulating for justifying persistance, and that in itself is kind of interesting. I get the feeling we’re not talking about a continuation of flirtation, but just wearing down resistance.

Flirting is one thing. I love flirting. But I just find it really hard that it’s that hard to read female body language. I know there’s lots of guys who will say that they persisted and got the girl, but there was some sign there, somewhere, wasn’t there? I wonder if the worst cases of persistance aren’t just guys pursueing women who are clearly not interested—and not caring.
If I like a guy, I ask him out. I have said, ‘maybe later’ and meant that. Maybe. And Later. It’s polite, it’s an expression of potential, but it’s not a contract. (Is there some difference I’m missing between guys saying, “I’ll call you,” and not doing it, and women saying, “Maybe later,” and not doing it, that I’m missing?) I have to say, as well, that I’m very reluctant to say flat out, “Look, there’s no way. I’ve been talking to you for a while, and your attitude toward women/the fact that you haven’t looked at my eyes more than my nipples/the way you approached me with that tired I’ll-ask-a-hundred-girls-out-to-see-if-one-says-yes manuever/the sneer in your voice/a hundred other little red flags/ all indicate to me that I do not, in fact, want to associate with you at any time in the near future.” Guys like that just hit on girls in quantity, do a lot of damage, and we have to be more polite to them than they are to us. It’s not the women that are the problem—it’s the skeevy guys who are giving us reason to be twitchy. I don’t think we should have to apologize for being cautious. I’ve noticed kind of a tendency for guys to say something on the order of, ‘sure, there’s jerks out there, but I’m not like that.’ Well, if you’re not, the best way to prove it is to pay attention to those signals. I know I do get kind of frustrated when some guy ignores discomfort and keeps asking me for my phone number or whatever. I don’t think anyone here (okay, well, maybe a couple) would do that, but it does happen. And I just want to yell, “Pay attention, fuckwad. I’m not meeting your eyes, I’m glancing away, turning away, looking nervous, maybe shaking my head, and you still keep asking me.!” But I have to be afraid in such a situation that the guy would not react well. After all, do I know him? *In such a situation, * I don’t think the guy cares about getting to know the woman at all, he’s just pretending. And, again, that’s a fairly casual pickup scenario on the street, at the bus stop, or whatever, but I find it hard to believe that the woman’s discomfort is not noted.

And you know, I have to stress again, that I italicized the stuff for emphasis. I’m not saying men are psychos or whatever, but we do deal with this stuff pretty frequently. /disclaimer

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HA HA HA!!!

      • “Maybe later” means NEVER. The way it works is, the guy asks the girl out (as that’s what is expected, so it usually happens that way), then the girl either 1) gives a time or day she can or a phone number, or 2) says anything else and offers no phone number, because she will NEVER go out with that guy. There is no middle ground.
        ~
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I have protected a few friends who’ve found themselves in not so nice situations.

When I was about 17 wrestling was a big draw for me. I had an older friend who knew several of the wrestlers. She introduced me to them. They let me hang out cos I was a friend of hers and I drove a big, loud, jacked-up, bad-ass Blazer. One night we were partying with a couple of them when one (6’3", 300#) grabbed her and started kissing and fondling. She said ‘no’ numerous times. When he refused to stop and began getting a bit rough, I jumped up, grabbed him by the shirt collar and back of his pants and threw him against the wall. Gave him a kick for good measure. The other wrestler just laughed at him. The next week he apologied and still had bruises. Never had problems with him again. I did manage to get a bit more respect after that though.

Another time we were waiting in my rig after a match when another wrestler came up to the window and was chatting with us. He reached in a had a few fondles. We both asked him to stop but he did it again. I reached across the seat, grabbed his hand and just looked at him menacingly. He laughed, pulled away and shoved his hand up her shorts. So, I grabbed his hand again and proceeded to break a couple of his fingers. He got the hint and was on the receiving end of major grief from the others as he had been warned about my protectiveness of friends. It was funny watching him on tv the next few weeks with taped fingers…

Not that I’m a brute or anything, but honestly believe that when a woman (or man) says no, that is that. Leave it. Bug off.

<BTW, my rebellious stage lasted all of 5-6 months, I am pleased to say.>

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Mind if the OP checks in? I have nothing against persistence. I’d better not – it took me three years to realize the guy I nearly married was madly in love with me! :o I do have a problem when the fellow persists after he has been told unequivocably “No”, especially if it’s for reasons other than degree of attraction. I turned the guy in my case down because he was married and I am actually somewhat more judgemental than most when it comes to adultery. If you’re married, I’m not dating you. If you say you’re in a open marriage, I will check with your wife, and even then, I’m not dating you.

I’m also distinguishing between persistence and pressure. I admit persistence can get a bit annoying after several months, but, for me, when I’ve experienced persistence, it’s because I haven’t been clear about how I feel about the fellow. Pressure is the sort of thing this fellow was up to, i.e. “You must come back here and flirt with me for 5 minutes if you want to get the report I’m supposed to give to you.” (While he didn’t put it that way exactly, that was what was happening until I went to his supervisor and said that he appeared to have a problem getting reports to me, and could we please set a policy. That time I left the personal stuff out of it.)

Look, anyone who spends more than 5 minutes around me knows I can be rather stubborn and strong-willed. If they’re trying to pressure me into doing something I think is wrong, drop that to 5 seconds. I’m also a contrary critter, which means that there’s a good chance that the more you try to get me to do something against my will, the less likely I am to do it. Just ask my parents! Nice, persistent guys, please don’t give up. One of these days it might actually make it through my thick skull that you didn’t just bring me roses because I looked down (think Ivanova). Men to whom I have said, “Not interested”, especially “Not interested because it would be wrong” or “because you’re married”, quit while you’re behind. All you’ll succeed in doing is lowering my opinion of you to somewhere around slug level, and I don’t like having that on my conscience. Honestly, I though guys didn’t like getting kicked in the nuts or getting fingers broken! (Thanks Washte!)

CJ
P.S. Dateless nice guys, my e-mail address is in my profile. With a bit (OK, a lot!) of persistence, I might think of something else to your nuts. :blushes furiously and leaves thread:

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if I were a guy, Seige, i would date you.
However, I am totally hetero.
And haven’t been asked on a date in 9 years.
Note: any Cleveland area guys younger than 40 …:slight_smile:

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Hey Siege, how YOU dooin?

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No DougC, that’s just the women you meet. You’re just using gross generalizations to make your point. There’s another whole world of women out there who think and act differently. Just like there are men who know when to give up and understand what the word ‘NO’ means.

It’s one thing to suggest that guys should be a bit persistant in asking a woman out and another totally, to suggest that it is ok for a man to pressure a woman into sex. It definately isn’t ok and if you and your friends think this way then you need to re-think your attitudes.

I don’t deny that the abhorent pressure tactics you speak of may work on some women, but those women also have problems of their own caused by conditioning. And just because a tactic works doesn’t make it right. If a guy tries that angle he may well end up getting the sex that he wants, but it basically means that he’s not a very nice person and doesn’t really respect women in general.

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I’d just like to disassociate myself with DougC, Stonebow and their likes. Can I be an honorary woman for the purpose of this and similar threads?

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      • The only problem with this claim is, what you claim does not match what usually happens. Women don’t want boring guys, and the boring guys are the nice guys who totally give up the first time the woman says “no”.
        Being chased by someone is exciting.
        Being ignored by them is not.
  • So you’re saying that women are always pure, noble creatures pursuing respect, and never just out for a cheap drunken one-night stand? Your attitude seems to be that women have only “proper” honorable desires, and it’s only men that have “improper” ones…
    ~
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DougC, you’re driving me to lesbianism, and I’m not even female. Two tips:

  1. When making grand sweeping generalizations with nothing to back them up, feel free to add words like “some” before appropriate nouns.

  2. When you’re making a claim about the attitudes, wants and needs of a certain group, and the members of that group say you’re wrong, it’s time to rethink.

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Priceguy, you’re sounding a little schizoid, what with wanting to “be an honorary woman”, and a lesbian one, at that, after having said you were with Lizard when he said “fuck what women like”. Not to mention the thread you linked to, in which you kept screaming “I’m a real man”. So, lighten up a little, and pick one team to play for. :slight_smile:

This has gotten pretty ugly, since the last time I checked in. But, I don’t think anyone actually thinks Siege was wrong in how she handled that guy. And, I doubt there’s anyone here who thinks he isn’t a creep.

But, this isn’t an easy issue. It’s one of the primary fronts in the Battle of the Sexes. Women want men to “be confident”, but there’s no clear demarcation between confidently pursuing a woman and being overly aggressive. As some have said, there’s body language to consider but, as others have pointed out, that doesn’t always accurately indicate the woman’s true feelings. Maybe she’s shy; maybe she’s distracted by the surroundings; maybe she’s just had a bad day, and is currently hating the whole world. We don’t know. So, “we” keep pitching until there’s a clear signal.

And, the examples some of the women here have posted of “when I say X, I mean Y” only make it worse. Sure, X may mean Y when you say it, but X might mean Z when another woman says it. Or, maybe it actually means X. How are we men supposed to know? It’s not like you’re wearing uniforms or some other sign that tells us how to interpret what you say. If X always meant X, it would be different. But, until that day comes (we should all live so long!), there’s going to be miscommunication. And, blaming either gender isn’t going to solve the problem.

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I can’t. I won’t. I’m a female man who’s a transgendered lesbian gay guy chain smoker with a penchant for chickens! Aaaargh!

And as for agreeing with Lizard, this is the part I concentrated on:

Preach it brother! Or sister.

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Since you specifically asked, one last post.

Actually I’m not talking about a specific scenario; I was sketching some situations in which things are not very clear, which is the kind of situations that most men wonder about.

The attraction to the ‘mysterious’ girl warrants an entire thread of its own; let’s not get into that here.

I can understand that differentiating ‘nice’ guys * from jerks is next to impossible to do from the outside, but can you understand that the exact reading of body language is similarly impossible for guys? If a guy considers himself not to be a jerk (and I guess even the jerks think they are nice), he’d probably think that some persistence is not a bad thing in itself.

A lot of body language is quite clear: if a girl is really uncomfortable, it is clearly visible. But the intermediate situations are much more difficult to read.

I don’t think wearing down resistance is ever appropriate behaviour, even if (as some of the other posters state, and which I believe is true to some extent) it may yield some ‘succes’ (i.e. sex). But ‘no means no’ to my mind only clearly and unconditionally applies to these kind of situations. And for those situations, I completely agree.

Where things are a bit flirty but not exactly, or there is only a low, conditional interest (like: ‘this guy seems nice but boring’ or ‘he seems fun but is a bad dresser’), a girl may with reason hold off at first. If (for example) you meet someone later on, I don’t think that you can say that the first ‘no’ means that you must forever keep your distance. In fact, I would prefer to make some small chit-chat, only to show that I don’t hold a grudge. If the conversation takes a good turn, why would the earlier refusal be a firm prohibition against asking again? OTOH, it may have been a categorical refusal which clearly should not be tempted again. In any case a guy has to learn to be able not to worry too much when receiving a implied ‘no’ (which may not be easy, what with the fragile male ego). Unfortunately with some guys this works out as getting deaf for ‘no’.

With such intermediate answers, do you see how difficult it is to understand what is meant? For example ‘Maybe later’, which you mean exactly like ‘we’ll see when the time comes’, is indeed not a contract. But DougC here (who is not a very good rolemodel, true) thinks it means ‘never’. I would tend to favor your interpretation, but in some cases (like ‘I will call’) it really means ‘never’, and is clear too. Again, read Davebear’s post: in his last paragraph he sums up very well the problem with interpretation.

Next, you should realize that every guy has to learn this anew, which means you may be clear in your behaviour, but the guy still is trying to find out what is meant. Of course this doesn’t make you responsible, nor does it oblige you; I’m just trying to explain why ‘guys’ in general seem never to learn. A lot of guys do learn. But you will not be bothered by the ones who have learned, only by the new or stubborn ones. And guess who are the ones that stick in your mind?

Persistance, in the sense of not hearing or accepting the implied ‘no’, when it is clear that the girl is uncomfortable, is very bad. But in quite a number of cases there may be an extended period of ‘wooing’ where there is no clear or firm ‘no’ and where you can only afterwards say whether the guy should have left it at that, or was right in persevering. Jerks will always persist, however obnoxious they are, but would you really prefer that ‘nice’ guys would not give it a second chance, if circumstances have changed or time has passed?

I hope these ramblings help you somewhat.

  • I don’t mean the ‘nice guys don’t get laid’ debate; I’ve read the threads and agree there; I just mean ‘non-jerks’.