I think sales culture may have something to do with it for some guys. In their jobs they are taught that a firm “No” is a customer’s way of opening negotiations. Then they are asking women out on dates and they get a firm “No.” What do you suppose happens?
You know, I’ve heard both men and women say that they know who they’re attracted to, sexually, quite fast. Is that true for most of the posters? Because that seems relevant here, as well. However, friendship attraction is something else entirely, and I’ve had problems with guys misinterpreting that. The other thing is perception. I think it was Deborah Tannen who did a study where she quizzed guys on how they interpreted womens’ body language, and then she quizzed the women involved in what they actually thought. The guys routinely interpreted a high proportion of women as being attracted to them, the men, when the women stated otherwise, sometimes vehemently. What guys may be interpreting as indecision could in fact just be general friendliness that the guy is misinterpreting as something more.
I’m still kind of skeptical as how difficult it is to interpret body language, frankly, because I’d have to see some evidence that men are doing this across the boad to everyone else. IF it’s just with women, doesn’t it indicate that it’s not then women that are the issue? I mean, the whole reason I’m skeptical of, ‘I can’t understand womens’ body language or something,’ argument is that it does have a bad ring to it—the “I thought she meant/wanted/said/ whatever argument.” And I have to be honest, too, because it seems like this thread is a justification of the persistance method. It seems like the first step in making this clear ought to be eliminating the backlash against women who do say, ‘no’, though. If you want women to say yes more often, to give you a chance, it won’t ever take place in a world where women keep having bad experiences.
Also, I have to say that I remember lots of good experiences. It’s just that I’m out and about a lot so that I have lots of encounters, and, yes, I have to say that there’s lots of guys out there hitting on women on the percentages rule, like we’re…points or something.
Well, something else, too. It seems a day does not go by when I’m out of the house that I’ll be standing around at a bus stop or something, minding my own business, and some guy will come up to me and try to get my phone number. Now, I didn’t look at the guy, didn’t speak to him, and so on. I’m just the girl with the long red hair at the bus stop, so I stand out. He’s not attracted to anything but the fact that everyone else there is seventy years old and I’m not. That’s what I’m talking about. He doesn’t know anything about me at all. I don’t think I’m being needlessly cynical in not being interested. Such a guy probably does go up to lots of women, hoping to find one to fall for it.
There’s a big difference between that guy—or some guy in a bar who does essentially the same thing—and someone you flirt with, feel that ‘zing!’ of chemistry with. Somebody with whom you share the same sense of humor or whatever. IF some guy is approaching me with a thinly-disguised, ‘you’re cute’ tactic and it becomes apparent that that’s my only attraction to him, yes, I do get impatient. And I think that’s relevant in bars, too. I have to say, I’ve never had a relationship that started out in a bar or at a bus stop----but the cute guy I was flirting with in the garden store checkout line, while the cashier changed the tape? I called him.
Christ on a cracker, what the hell did I say?
For the record, I am a fairly ‘nice guy.’ I’m big on respecting people’s wishes and taking what they say at face value. I’m sure that someone will point out that I’m also probably a whiny, passive aggressive manipulator, but that’s not in this discussion.
I don’t condone overzealous, pushy guys or their tactics- in fact, I find most of the tactics and attitudes used by these men abhorrent in the extreme. That aside, I have also noticed that these tactics work- while I was dating, I noticed that these guys spent a lot fewer nights alone than I did.
Does that make them better people? Better men? Of course not. But to argue that their behavior is not reinforced by its general effectiveness in getting them sexual attention is a bit naive.
Well, if you define ‘success’ as wearing women down to the point where they just give up…It’s that attitude that ‘it works, it must be okay,’ that people are nervous about. It works for guys, but it leaves a lot of women feeling…not good. That fact alone should define it as not successful. If it works for guys, but women ultimately resentful, it’s not a success, it’s a victory, and somebody got defeated.
Just a few remarks.
I’m not accusing women of doing something wrong, I’m just explaining why some things occur in society, unfortunate as it may be.
Re: your experiences in public. A lot of guys do in fact refrain from bothering you, unfortunately you cannot substract those from the ones that do bother you. The ones who act proper will not even notice on your perception. Even if a small percentage of men is troublesome, you will still be subject to unwanted attention. I know it occurs, I’ve seen it happen, and my female friends tell me about it, too. There is no big clubhouse where men may chide their fellow-men for this behaviour (unless you’re Washte and can do that on the spot
). I can empathize with you, but I can’t directly change it, other than talk with friends, who are not very prone to act in that manner anyway.
You may be right about guys having a bias for ‘positive’ interpretation. I think you’re also right about guys on the whole being less fine-tuned to implied signs and body language. I never said it was only with women. I only brought it up in that context since that is what this thread was about, relations between sexes.
And is body language a completely error-free medium for women? I find that really hard to believe.
Friendliness may be mistaken for romantic interest, true. Unfortunately the converse may also be true, and if you do not want to pass up a chance at love with someone you care for, you will be advised to give it a shot.
Again, I’m sorry that you are subject to quite a lot of harrassment. I’ve got female friends who have similar experiences. Harrassment is never good. But be aware that most women seem to expect men to take the first initiative. You may be someone who acts differently, and this is fortunately becoming more common, but society still pressures men into approaching women without having clear signs whether they are interested or not. Given the current state of society and the prevalance of the bar as dating-ground, there is not much you or I or anyone as an individual can do about it, other than not act in a similar manner. (boy, and me just trying to find the courage to get out again looking for someone to love )
In the meantime, feel free to rant on.
Well, I don’t believe that there’s nothing anyone can do. I mean, for starters, shrugging over it has never, ever, accomplished anything. And I’ve asked a couple of times what these guys’ buddies were doing in bars or stuff like that. Are they in agreement with their friends’ tactics, or just passive? Priceguy has shown that there are guys who object—loudly—to such behavior, and well, I find that his attitude is, quite frankly, more reassuring, and pro-active than, you know—yours. I have to blunt and just say that right out. I’m sorry, but I have to say that.
One final note, too, which I found interesting: I’m not ranting. Nothing more than that, and I know it was a joke, but it’s an interesting choice of words for what’s been a rather calm discussion.
After a more careful re-read, you said nothing all that horrible. You just came off sounding like a one-woman-a-night guy, not caring here or there. I apologize for lumping you in with DougC, with whom I still wish to disassociate myself. I like “Christ on a cracker”, by the way, I’ll make a mental note of it right next to “Christ in a cartoon”.
Nobody has argued that. We’re not protesting not taking no for an answer on the basis that it doesn’t get you laid.
I don’t know about anyone else, but you’re confusing the heck out of me, Margin. You seem to be all over the map, with these statements.
This sounds like you don’t ever want a guy to approach you, under any circumstances. Because, what else would a stranger have to go on, other than your appearance? Isn’t that what all initial approaches are based on?
Well, yeah. They persisted, they got what they wanted…sounds like success to me. Leaving aside the question of whether their tactics are annoying, and the equally reprehensible behavior of the women who sleep with them, just to get the men to stop bugging them, what would you call it, if not successful?
There are actually a whole bunch of reasons for this. For one, it’s a socially condoned, even encouraged, behavior, whether you and I approve, or not. Our whole culture is built on the “Go for it!”, “Nice guys finish last”, “Winners never quit…”, “Just do it” mentality. Guys are taught, from about age 4 on, to be aggressive. Then, it’s reinforced by seeing the really aggressive, persistent guys scooping up all the babes. So, persistence is not recognized as being a universally bad thing, like rape or violence. In fact, it’s widely romanticized, in literature, movies, and TV shows. More reinforcement.
For another, most women don’t make it clear that the guy is annoying them. I, for one, will tell a friend to back off, if that becomes clear. But, that’s rare.
Then there are the women who either play hard to get, or are hard to get. These women virtually demand that we be persistent. More reinforcement for this behavior.
There’s also the slack that one cuts for one’s friends, plus the curiousity factor; “Is this approach really going to work?”
And, let’s not forget, it cuts both ways. I’m almost 45 and I have yet to see any woman publicly chastise a female friend for playing head games with a guy she met at a bar (or a bus stop…or anywhere else). But, you want us guys to do it? That’s a little unrealistic, don’t you think?
Just to clarify; While she is very big and very strong, Washte is also very much female.
Kal: oops, didn’t know that. Hope Washte isn’t mad, wouldn’t want her mad, would we?
With respect to margin:
I guess I asked for that. If the subject would have been racism, I would have had exactly your reaction too. So you deserve a proper answer.
Yes, I have on occasion intervened, if I was sure what was going on and if I was present. That is indeed what has to be done (besides talking about this with male friends, what I also do). What I meant was, I can’t help what’s going on at other places, where I’m not present, such as the situations you are subject to. And in a lot of situations it is not clear for an outsider that there is a problem. If I see a man talking to a woman on a bus stop, I’m not going to intervene unless the woman is clearly being harrassed. For all I know they may be having a little talk that they both enjoy.
You seem to be angry about what you have to live with, in particular the reactions of men who seem to try to pick you up solely on your looks. I can understand that. If I may give you an analogy: with racism, I’m bothered sometimes by reactions of other people, and there are situations that I avoid. I can feel sorry for myself, and those reactions are not good, but I can’t immediately make them go away and neither can you. And I don’t expect, heck I don’t even want, white people to apologize for being white or for the reactions of fellow white people.
Similarly, you being, apparently, an attractive woman, have trouble with lots of guys bothering you. As I said, I’ve got female friends who have similar experiences. I empathize with their plight, but what more can I do? I’m not going to bodyguard them; I prefer to live in a country where women can go outside independently, without having a brother or father to accompany them. You’re not to blame for the actions of those men, but neither am I, at least not in the individual sense. And I sure as heck am not going to apologize for being of the male gender.
The most we can do, meanwhile, is to support organizations that work for social change, or to be politically active, or to act in another manner that may lead to a change for the better. Are you doing your bit?
So what I try to say is that, short of having a significant change in society, those kind of actions will not entirely disappear, at least not in your lifetime. Those men who won’t take no for an answer may have been raised in the wrong way, may have this attitide reinforced by movies and by their friends. That is very likely the answer to the OP’s question, and apparently yours as well. Their reprehensible behaviour may resemble attitudes that other men have (confidence, not being afraid to strike up a conversation with an unknown woman), but I refuse to see all male initiative as being in the same class as harrassment.
If you disagree with me on this last point, just say so, then we can end this. I’m putting a lot of effort in a thread I wanted to leave, solely because you said you wanted to understand some things about the male viewpoint. I you don’t want to accept that men may have my viewpoint, I can’t help you. Maybe other men can help you.
With respect to harrassment: there is nothing any of us individually can do to change the fact that those obnoxious men will exist and will continue to act in their obnoxious ways. So you’ll have to live with that. It doesn’t make things good, but it is how things stand. I can fully understand that you still don’t like those actions, so I would think you’re justified to rant about that.
‘Feel free to rant on’ was not meant to accuse you of ranting. At least you weren’t ranting against me. You sure showed irritation with all those guys trying to pick you up. That may be well-deserved, but as I said I am not those guys and I cannot influence their behaviour in any manner. I wanted to say that you may, if so inclined, rant against their behaviour. If you don’t want that, that’s cool too.
The discussion may seem a little heated, because it is something I get emotional over too. I may not always express myself as well as should be, but I hope that you at least believe me when I say that I honestly want to understand your standpoint, and try to make myself understood as well. In order to make my tone better understood, I’ve tried to put in a lot of smilies, even though I’m no fan of them.
I hope you have some profit by this discussion. If you don’t mind, I really would prefer to back out now. This has taken for more time than I wanted, and I think everything that had to be said has been said.
Except one thing, what I completely forgot: welcome to the boards.
I think that we are pretty much in total agreement on this issue. I just didn’t want to (knowing the limits of my self-control) rant about the assholes out there that prey upon women like this, or the women that make excuses for their enabling of it while bitching about it later. Been there, done that, tried to intervene, and have found out on more than one occasion that despite my efforts (appreciated at the time), the ladies in question went on to sleep with these guys anyway! And then bitch about what jerks they were!
Pretty much all of my comments in this thread were directed to the question posed by the OP.
Why don’t some men take no for an answer? Because if they persist, there are a whole subset of women out there that will sleep with them. 'nuff said.
::cracks knuckles and looks at Tusculan…::
No offense taken mate.
I’ve put up with a lot of crap in my lifetime. It really bothers me when people refuse to take ‘no’ for an answer.
Whilst there is a difference between persistance and pestering, in most situations ‘no’ definitely means that.
I agree with Washte (which won’t surprise her or Kal). If the situation’s ambiguous, I don’t blame a fellow for giving it his best shot, in fact, in my case, I recommend it. As noted, I can be completely oblivious to the fact that a fellow’s interested in me. If however, a fellow persists after he has been told clearly and unambiguously, “No”, that’s when I don’t understand why he persists. I read a story once in which there was a bar which considered putting up a sign which read, “Please don’t ask for credit as a refusal might cause offense,” but decided that, for the sake of accuracy, the sign should read, “Please don’t ask for credit as a severe beating followed by a whack upside the head might cause offense” but it was too long for the sign. In other words, we’re not just talking “No”, we’re talking “No, and if you keep this up, I will hurt you physically, emotionally, financially or some combination thereof, not to mention considering you a candidate for biggest twit on the planet.”
I don’t know what I want, or even if I want it. I am also not writing anyone off as sexually unattractive ever since I told the one fellow I could never see making love for him because I would be worried he’d crush me. Less than a month later, I realized he loved me, and less than 2 months later, I realized just how wrong I was.
I do, however, know what I don’t want, and married men are just about number 1 on the list. In cases like that, I don’t give off mixed signals because I don’t want to run the risk of being misinterpreted. I’m not into power trips, so what would be the point of giving a fellow hope when he doesn’t have a chance?
Vanilla, send me an e-mail. If you don’t mind non-Christians, in October I might be able to do something about that lack of male companionship.
Sock Monkey, I’m doing just fine. How you doing?
CJ
Davebear that’s simply not true, and there is a difference between some guy trying to flat out pick you up on the street and some guy chatting with you in a supermarket line. Sorry, but I don’t have any problem telling the difference. And, yeah, if I can tell a guy is solely interested in me because of my looks, it’s kind of annoying because I’m not interested in a guy like that. It’s not like I’m wearing decollete tops and low rises or something.
Nope. It is possible to do something other than the ‘hey, baby,’ approach. Do I really have to point that out? I had a guy once notice the book I was reading and start an intelligent conversation about it. But if a guy is ever-so-obviously-trolling for any old babe, and has picked me, he can’t then dispense attitude when I get annoyed at being treated that way.
Kind of ignores my point, doesn’it it? Sorry, but I think we should have something that doesn’t gratify men and irritate women. I don’t know whether you missed that or ignored it. Either way, if it works for men and irritates women it’s not a success.
Leaving aside the question of why sleeping with these guys is reprehensible—double standard much?-----Well, you know, like I’ve said before, although not that explicitly—it’s annoying amongst other things. Oh, hey, though, as long as it gets women iinto bed, it’s all good, and then you can slag on the women you got into bed that way? Yeah, really successful—if you want to be a jerk.
Yes, it’s the hunter mentality.
Long, long time ago our ancestors were hunter-gatherers. The men went out hunting, and the women did the gathering. We were hunter-gatherers because we had evolved into hunter-gatherers.
Being hunters meant the men had to track prey (they were usually larger than man-sized), stalk them, and attack them. Sometimes repeatedly.
Nowadays most of us don’t hunt anymore (and those who do usually use high powered rifles) so we channel our hunter instincts into other areas such as sports, games, businesses, etc. Well, it just turns out that some men see that women as prey in their “game” and they relish the chase.
This is the bit where I stare awkwardly at my shoes since I usually don’t go around picking up women.
:smack:
(this is due to shyness, I may or may not be nice guy)
That makes two of us, lad! That makes two of us.
CJ
(Holy shit, he’s interested. Now what do I do?!)
You can’t go wrong with a push-up bra and a smile.
What is?
Sure. One is obviously trying to pick you up, and the other is probably just bored. What if the locations were reversed, and the guy at the supermarket asked for your phone number, and the guy at the bus stop just made idle conversation? Is it the approach or the location that’s the problem?
Well, I agree that any guy who uses “hey, baby” as an opening line deserves to be shunned by society as a whole, but you never said anything about that, previously. You only said he’d asked for your phone number, so I was envisioning a polite, respectful conversation leading up to that point.
But, you do realize that 99% of all men who approach you out of the blue are going to be doing so solely on the basis of your looks, don’t you? Sure, a book or a bag of brussels sprouts may provide a conversation starter but, if they’re genuinely interested in getting to know you, it’s because they find you attractive, not because of your reading or eating habits. We men may make conversation with women we don’t find attractive, but we’re not going to ask them out.
I neither missed nor ignored your point. You apparently missed mine, though. Yes, it would be nice if we that doesn’t gratify men while irritating women, but what we have is at least as much women’s fault as it is men’s. If it didn’t work, men would stop doing it. And, denying that it works doesn’t change anything.
Well, first, I don’t behave the way we’ve been discussing. Second, if you’re calling me a jerk, that’s inappropriate. Third, being snarky is not called for, either. I didn’t say it was “all good”. I just said it was a successful strategy for the men who use it.
As to the double standard, no, not at all. I’m applying the same standard to both parties; something which you seem to be unwilling to do. The women who give in to those guys are not victims; they’re participants in perpetuating the behavior you’re complaining about. If they didn’t reward the jerks, you wouldn’t have to put up with that behavior.
And, don’t forget the women who enjoy, or even insist on, being doggedly pursued. As long as they exist, the problem will exist. Because, if No can mean No, Maybe, or Not Yet, But Keep Trying, depending on who’s saying it, some men will continue to be persistent.
On a side note; Holy Crap! :eek: You mean that “How you doin’?” thing really works?!?
Umm…I’d say one of you should email the other. (That could be either of you, but I’d say the ball’s in Sock Munkey’s court.) If you were serious, a nice introduction letter would be appropriate. If not, a nice apology for the misunderstanding. After all, I never took that line seriously, so maybe other folks don’t, either.